Hello again.....

Well I got the head back and the 3 broken exaust manifold bolts have been removed from my 86 GT trunkside head.

I have started the reassembling phase of this job. The head has been put on and the head bolts have been torq. to 75lbs (haynes said between 60-90). I then removed the front side pushrods so I could install the new lower manifold gasket. I have set the engine to TDC on the #1 cyl. and started putting the pushrods back (following hanyes). Well they say to turn the rocker bolt while twirling the pushrod between your finger until you feel friction. Well I stoped as I felt that the pushrod no longer freely turned (stopped when I felt friction on the pushrod). Then Haynes says to tighten it to 1 and a 1/2 turns (which I did). Now when I took everything apart.....before I even started loosing the pushrods I noticed that I could twirl them between my finger tips. Now after reinstalling them (following hanyes method) the pushrods that I have tighten are tight. They no longer twirl between my fingers (They are TIGHT)! I wanted to post this before I turn the engine to TDC #4 cyl. because I fear that these pushrods should have twirling motion in them. I have adjusted 1-5-6 Exhaulst and 1-2-3 intake so far and all 6 of them are tight. Is this how they should be...if so why was there play in them before I removed them????

Thanks!!!!!!!!

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Keith F.

quote Originally posted by camon: Hello again..... Well I got the head back and the 3 broken exaust manifold bolts have been removed from my 86 GT trunkside head. I have started the reassembling phase of this job. The head has been put on and the head bolts have been torq. to 75lbs (haynes said between 60-90). I then removed the front side pushrods so I could install the new lower manifold gasket. I have set the engine to TDC on the #1 cyl. and started putting the pushrods back (following hanyes). Well they say to turn the rocker bolt while twirling the pushrod between your finger until you feel friction. Well I stoped as I felt that the pushrod no longer freely turned (stopped when I felt friction on the pushrod). Then Haynes says to tighten it to 1 and a 1/2 turns (which I did). Now when I took everything apart.....before I even started loosing the pushrods I noticed that I could twirl them between my finger tips. Now after reinstalling them (following hanyes method) the pushrods that I have tighten are tight. They no longer twirl between my fingers (They are TIGHT)! I wanted to post this before I turn the engine to TDC #4 cyl. because I fear that these pushrods should have twirling motion in them. I have adjusted 1-5-6 Exhaulst and 1-2-3 intake so far and all 6 of them are tight. Is this how they should be...if so why was there play in them before I removed them???? Thanks!!!!!!!!

Haynes is wrong. Tighten them 3/4 to 1 turn, not 1 1/2 turn.

"Why was there play"--probably wear on the cam.

Ed

Almost everyone gets carried away on this and tightens the lifters too tight. You tighten until you feel ANY preasure on the pushrod, then do the extra turn (it would take a flame war and into page two before you will get a consensous on how tight to set the lifters, so skip that part for now.) If you look at the threads showing on top of the nuts they should all be about the same, about 2 threads showing. Readjust and be very carefull about the feel when first adjusting.

Thanks for the input guys!

I took 1/2 a turn out of the ones I did and did the remaining pushrods with the 1 turn method.....so they all have one turn. They now all can be twirled but there is heavy friction on some. Should the pushrods feel snug when tighened correctly or should they twirl freely? Just confuses me alittle because some feel tigher then others??? I want to make sure that after I get this together (hopefull by Sunday night) and go to start it that I don't bend a push rod or something...then I have to dis-mentel the thing again!

I also put the lower intake on and called it a night. I will check this thread Sunday afetrnoon before I start at putting the valve covers on to see if others have something to say about this.

Just for reference:
The method I used was to giggle them up and down until there was no play in them, then I turned them slightly more ( just a hair..... right before I could feel friction) then I put the 1 full turn on them.

Thanks again guys for the help!

+'s all around!

How I've adjusted my valves:

The idea is to get the lifter poppet part way down into its bore, about 1/4-1/2 of its travel. If you don't use up some of its travel, then your valve(s) will get loose as normal wear on valve-train parts causes the poppet to reach the top of it's travel. It will also requires more oil to remain (at pressure) in the lifter's plunger cylinder. The more volume to fill, the more chance that the plunger can be compressed, causing a ticking noise or at high revs a bent pushrod.

Make sure that the lifter being adjusted is on the base circle of the cam, this will be TDC on that piston with both valves closed. TDC #1 is where both #1 valves are closed and main fat timing mark on harmonic balancer is at zero on timing tab and distributor rotor is pointing at the number one plug wire terminal. Set your intake and exhaust valve lash on #1. Rotate the harmonic balancer clockwise 120* to the next timing mark and you know that you are at #2 TDC. Set your intake and exhaust valve lash on #2. The next timing mark after that is #3 TDC and so forth. Remember that the GM/Fiero engines have three timing marks (0*, 120* and 240*) on the harmonic balancer, which makes this much easier than the Chiltons manual method. 0* is the fat timing mark, 120* and 240* are the thin timing marks, do not confuse them.

The lifter plunger centering adjustment is 1&1/2 turns. Most people think is too much. It is not. The 1&1/2 turns (as specified in the FSM) will center the lifter plunger on an OEM valve train (with the standard rocker ratio). The reason most think that 1&1/2 turns is too much is because they don't properly identify the zero lash point. If you are twirling the pushrod you won't be able feel the zero lash point unless your hands are 500 times (give or take) more sensitive than the average human. Anyway, while approaching the zero lash point, you should be gently rocking the pushrod up & down between the lifter and the rocker arm. That way you can feel the play diminish down to zero.

Wiggle the pushrod back and forth as you tighten the rocker nut, you will feel the pushrod end "clicking" as it moves around. The amount of movement will decrease as the nut is tightened until suddenly it stops. This is the point where the lash is out with the poppet at the top of it's bore. Now, you need to move the poppet down its bore, so you continue to tighten the rocker nut.

How much you ask? Well, the rocker stud has a 1.5mm pitch, so one full turn moves the rocker ball down 1.5mm. The rocker arm ratio (stock) is 1.5:1, so moving the rocker ball down 1.5mm moves the pushrod down 1.67x1.5mm, or 2.5mm plus or minus a very tiny bit. The lifter poppet travel is 6-8mm, so 1.5 turns on the rocker nut (factory spec) is 3.8mm at the lifter poppet, or about half-way. That's how much I tightened mine, and it worked just fine. Any less and the valves will need readjustment sooner due to wear.

I had mechanics using the Chilton’s manual mess up the lash, I tried the twirl and 3/4 turn method and it was noisy as marbles. Jazzman gave me the pitch and rocker ratio measurements above and I went with timing marks on the balancer and the 1-1/2 turns on rocker arms.
My engine is smooth now. Lots of power. Most important to me is that I wont have to go through the work to tear the upper half of the engine out to get the lash adjusted for a very long time.

Some people have had success with other methods, all the power to you. If there is an easier way, count me in! Good luck with setting your lash and I hope you are using the rubber valve cover gaskets, they are sweet and don’t leak.
Tm

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jetman
Silver 86 SE 2M6 4-speed, with "check wallet light"

Yep, I remember writing that. The key thing was wiggling the pushrod back and forth so that it taps in the rocker arm seat. The poppets in dry lifters compress very easily, so easily that if you're just spinning the pushrod you won't feel any resistance until the poppet seats in the bottom of the lifter. Then the additional turns will yield a valve that is locked partially open, no cylinder pressure, and possibly a damaged camshaft from the extended cranking without getting the engine running on a new, unbroken in camshaft.

JazzMan

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 08-10-2003).]

That is an excellant explanation!

If you are feeling a few of them tighter than the others are you only checking them when the valve is in the closed position? Likely you are feeling the preasure of the open valve.

The quick check of how many threads are showing above the nut is an easy way to see if one is too tight also.

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: The quick check of how many threads are showing above the nut is an easy way to see if one is too tight also.

It was this statement by Electrathon some time ago that gave me the confidence to button up the job after my adjustments.
I did go through and was able to twirl a couple of pushrods at TDC after setting valve lash.
I had set the lash at EACH cylinder's TDC, both intake and exhaust, after all vertical slop/play was removed. Less chance of errors.

Thanks Jetman for the detailed walkthrough of the procedure (best write up I have seen on this topic).

With this info I will go back and redo the adjustments to all pushrods again.

The way I did it before was to set the engine at TDC #1 cylinder and adjust 1,5,6 exhaust and 1,2,3 intake. then turn the engine 360 degrees to TDC #4 cylinder and adjust the rest. I will attempt to do each one individually.

Just to make sure I have the timing/TDC info correct.....#1 will be timing mark at 0 rotor pointing @ 1, #2 will be the timing mark at 120 rotor pointing @ 2, #3 will be the timing mark at 240 rotor pointing @ 3, #4 will be the timing mark back at 0 (360 degrees) with the rotor pointing @ 4, ect,ect,ect......)

Thanks for the great info from all!

+'s for those I haven't rated yet!

quote Originally posted by camon: Thanks Jetman for the detailed walkthrough of the procedure (best write up I have seen on this topic).

Thanks, Jazzman and a few others helped, I wrote it so that my non-mechanical brain could understand it.

quote The way I did it before was to set the engine at TDC #1 cylinder and adjust 1,5,6 exhaust and 1,2,3 intake. then turn the engine 360 degrees to TDC #4 cylinder and adjust the rest. I will attempt to do each one individually.

Wow, Chiltons manual transposed the some numbers.

quote Just to make sure I have the timing/TDC info correct.....#1 will be timing mark at 0 rotor pointing @ 1, #2 will be the timing mark at 120 rotor pointing @ 2, #3 will be the timing mark at 240 rotor pointing @ 3, #4 will be the timing mark back at 0 (360 degrees) with the rotor pointing @ 4, ect,ect,ect......)

Yes, clockwise on the harmonic balancer.
Good luck,
Tm

[This message has been edited by jetman (edited 08-10-2003).]

Well everything major is back on the car/engine. Only 2 concerns I have is pushrod adjustment (but I think they should be correct), the other thing is the injector plugs. As mentioned in my original thread of a week ago I never even thought to mark them....so I have no idea the oriention that they go back on. I laid the wire strip across the intake and it apears that the plugs may of lined up with the right injector but i'm not positive! Is there anyway (do any of you guys know) how to determine the order of which of these plugs go to which injector!

Tonight after work I will finish the installing of the plenum,throttle body and exhaust manifold and vac. lines and look everything over (make sure I didn't forget anything). Tuesday I will add the coolant and oil recheck everything for the final time and try to start it up! Hopefully it will fire right up and run correctly.

One last thing.....
is there anyway I can get the oil up into the top half of the motor prior to starting the motor (like.....hand cranking the motor or removing fuel pump fuse and cranking it alittle). Is it safe to just fire up the motor with the valve train being dry?

Well thanks for all the assistance and i'll post the starting results!

Thanks!

quote Originally posted by camon: the injector plugs. As mentioned in my original thread of a week ago I never even thought to mark them....so I have no idea the oriention that they go back on. ... is there anyway I can get the oil up into the top half of the motor prior to starting the motor (like.....hand cranking the motor or removing fuel pump fuse and cranking it alittle). Is it safe to just fire up the motor with the valve train being dry?

The injectors batch fire (all at the same time) so really... it makes no difference where they get hooked up, as long as the wires lay in neatly.

Do NOT fire the engine up dry. Sure, you probably could, and nothing might happen. You really wanna take that chance?

There are proper pre-oiler rigs - but I just took a dead distributor, and ground the gear off the end. Hook a drill onto the top, and spin away until you see oil flow at the #5 cylinder (that's the last one to get oiled on the 2.8's). It REALLY helps if you have a helper slowly turn the engine over while you're spinning the pump - this opens up the various passages and distributes the oil better. Oh, if you're not using a distributor (like, just a long hex shaft or whatever) make sure you don't push down hard, or you'll grind the oil pump gears into the housing.

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87/88 V6 5spd Notchback Hybrid (Herein known as a FormulaGT)

My page: http://www.fieroclub.com

They batch fire in three's. 1-3-5 then 2-4-6.
Lay the harness on the manifold and they will line up to the correct cylinder. You would have to move #1 to #2 to screw it up and it prolly wouldn't reach.
Good advice about the pre-oil. I also took an old distributor and ground off the gear drive. Works great......Paul

I had used assembly lube.
I took the coil wire off and I believe that I also took the fuel pump fuse out and cranked it over.
That pre-oiler is a very clever idea! I will remember that one!

The oil pump has a 6mm hex drive input that fits into a 6mm hex in the end of the distributor gear. It also fits into a 6mm socket, so go to the hardware store and get one of those cordless screwdriver extender/socket adapters and chuck it up into a drill, then spin that oil pump to your heart's content. BTW, it is HARD to spin, that puppy uses some horsepower. It shouldn't take more than 30 seconds or so to fully prime the oil galleys. You can look at the rocker arms and see oil coming out of the hole where the pushrod pocket is.

JazzMan

When you use a drill to spin the oil pump place something over the hole to keep oil from squirting out all over the place. Oil will shoot up our of the hole where the drill shaft goes in. I used a series of washers to cover the hole and secured them with the distributor hold down bracked.

Well the car runs (sounds pretty darn good). This is the first time I heard the 86 GT run without an exhaust leak (I bought the car with it).

Anyway......
I checked compression prior to starting the car and it is between 150-155psi in every cylinder (good strong compression).

The bad news is that after I plugged in the fuel pump fuse (unplugged fuel pump fuse to do compression test) and cranked it over for the first time I got out of the car while it was running and walked behind it (to the engine compartment) and it is leaking fuel. I must have damaged the little metal tube (or fitting) that runs from the lower intake to the fuel rail (not sure what it is...cold start injector maybe). It is located near the distribitor (practically right under it) and has a plug from the fuel injector plug harness that connects to it right at the lower intake, there is a metal tube on it that runs up from the electrical plug and screws into a fitting on the fuel rail. I seen the fuel coming up between the tube and the mounting fitting of the tube, the part that connects to the fuel rail fitting!

Upon further inspection I noticed that the tube has up and down movement even when the tubes fitting is mounted securely on the fuel rail fitting. I have removed it but really don't know much about it. I will just replace the whole unit if someone can tell me what it is! Or if I can buy the who;e unit (including the tube).

Even though it leaks fuel (should be an easy fix) i'm so happy that the thing is back together and sound really good!!!!!!!!

Thanks to everyone that has helped me out along the way!!!!!!!!!!!

There are Fiero parts vendors at the link at the top of page. I got the same leaking part replaced from Kick Hill. The Fiero Store recomended them since they did not carry the part.
Here is the link. http://www.kickhill.com/index.html

It is gratifying to know that all of us here at PFF helped you out.

You just earned your Fiero exhaust manifold gasket "Badge of Honor"!

I may have found the cause for the leak (possibly)!

I have been thinking about this fuel leak and there wasn't no o-ring or anything on that tube where it plugs into the fuel rail (you would think it should have one). This would explain the play that the tube has when it is tight (no o-ring between the tube and the lower intake mounting hole). What made me think of this o-ring was....I remembered picking up a little o-ring laying at the distribitor mounting hole when I had the lower intake off. I didn't know why it was there or where it came from (I assumed it was a o-ring that was replaced at one point and the old one might of fell down there).
Well now i'm almost certain this is where that o-ring belongs because it was about the same diameter as this metal tube. The bad thing is....I don't know what I did with it (I didn't look for it yet....so maybe I was smart enough to throw it in the trunk or in my tool box.

Is there suppose to be an o-ring or something where that tube fits down into the lower intake?

Thanks!

O-ring kit here, http://www.carparts.com/parts/search/skuturbo.asp?searchtype=ALL&RefLink=0-0-0-0-0&searchstring1=+17111954&x=12&y=14

Thanks for the link...but the fuel leak is fixed. The car experienced another leak though....for details i'm opening a new thread "anitfreeze leak...engine guru's needed")! Thanks!!!!!!!!