Today, I finished installing my new Calipers, Pads and Rotors. I bleed the back brakes everything was going just great until while bleeding the front brake, the brake peddle, hits the floor. Saying a few choice words I looked under the car and found brake fluid running out of the metal break line. I went over to The Fiero Store and found this item, 84-87 STAINLESS STEEL METAL BRAKE LINE SET that I’m going to order. I thought if one breaks they must be all in the same shape. I inspected the rubber hoses they look pretty good but as we all know looks are deceiving sometimes. My question is, would you replace these rubber hoses or just chance it? Are the rubber hoses more durable, is this a part on the car that fails often? It would add a little over 100.00 to the order. I have just about made my mind up to order them but I sure would like to hear some feedback before I spend the extra money for the rubber hoses if this is a part the seldom fail.

Feedback would be appreciated.

Rubber hoses deteriorate over time. They don't just suddenly fail unless you neglect to inspect them a few times a year.

Good rules of thumb - rubber hoses should NOT have any external cracking. While external cracks doesn't mean the hose will fail immediately, it's a sure sign of a weathered hose. Cracking means the rubber is hardening, among other things, and is getting weak (possible brittle). Best to replace cracking hoses sooner than later.

If you don't see any cracks, then proceed to inspect the hoses a little more closely. Make sure they are flexible, but firm. If flexing a brake hose starts to produce some cracking, then it's best to replace.

If the hose appears to be in good shape, and flexs without falling apart, make sure there are no nicks or damage done to them. Sometimes a hose can be in good shape, but is worn due to rubbing against other components, etc. Again, replace.

Now, the next fact is this - the Fiero is far from new. Early ones are getting to be 20 years old. Rubber components don't last forever. New parts for the Fiero aren't always easy to come by. The fact is that at some point you'll be needing to replace the hoses. If you can afford it, buy the hoses anyway. Brake hoses, to my knowledge, can still be purchased without difficulty. However, there's no telling if (or when) they will become difficult to obtain.

I'd purchase new hoses and hang onto them until you need to replace the originals.

I've found that the rubber hoses fail internally more often than externally. Little pieces come loose inside and act as check valves and won't let the brakes release. I've had to remove a few that looked perfect on the outside, but wouldn't let brake fluid pass thru them.

Good luck,
Dave

Pick up a set of " Earl's " stainless steel braided brake hoses from the Fiero Store . It's actually cheaper to buy the braided brake hoses than it is to purchase just the rubber brake hoses at a local auto parts store .

Galen Smith
Red '85 Sport Coupe
Founder of Suncoast Fiero Club
Florida Fiero Council

....just check with your State inspection program. Seems PA has a hangup with the Stainless lines for some odd reason. NY doesnt care.
Red

Just wonder'n, are there any other companies that sell these "stainless" type of flex lines. I am using the berreta conv. Some other type must be avail for cheaper? Jegs,summit, who?

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: I've found that the rubber hoses fail internally more often than externally. Little pieces come loose inside and act as check valves and won't let the brakes release. I've had to remove a few that looked perfect on the outside, but wouldn't let brake fluid pass thru them. Good luck, Dave

quote [B]Pick up a set of " Earl's " stainless steel braided brake hoses from the Fiero Store . It's actually cheaper to buy the braided brake hoses than it is to purchase just the rubber brake hoses at a local auto parts store . Galen Smith

Dave is correct. Rubber brake hoses do often fail internally as the insides collapse. Galens advise is excellent for the reasons he outlined plus one more- good idea to replace brake lines that are 20-25 years old regardless if they work or not. Brake lines don't last forever. You can either pay now or you'll pay later. Probably less trouble to replace and pay now.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

First off... this isn't a flame on anyone... It does however contain unpopular facts.

Working backward....

Some states have problems with SS flex lines because many of those products don't meet FMVSS (DOT) standards. Since the average inspector can't always tell which is what they may reject all of them. Some states specifically allow the inspectors to reject any critical or emissions part that are not OE or very close to it.

Rubber lines can fail in several ways. Just about all of them take years. OF course Fieros are all old now so many are failing.

(I'm going to add this to my cave soon but here's the jist of it... Applies to all cars and light trucks.)

Rubber lines are made in at least 3 layers just like many brands of garden hose.

The inner and outter layer are rubber. They are different formulas. The middle layer is a woven cord. (I forget what it usually used for the cord layer.)

Many lines also have rubber/plastic rings around them in areas the maker thought may rub things at times. These rings are sacraficial. Much better to wear the ring than the line.

The inner layer is similar to the rubber used in the rest of the seals and things. It will swell if exposed to petrolium and certain other chemicals.

The outter rubber is probably more like tire tread. It's pretty tough stuff and resistant to chemicals. (within limits....)

A common cause of the inner layer getting oiled is cracking of the outter jacket. HOWEVER!!! Even if the outter jacket is perfect the inner layer can get oiled. This is often caused by people spraying penetrating oil on fittings while doing brake work.

The penetrating oils often contain solvents that can get thru even the tight pours of the outter jacket. (This is why flex line failure often follows other brake work.)

The other thing that will damage the inner layer is bad fluid. The fluid needs to be completely flushed every so many years. Few cars get that so the old fluid eventually eats the whole system including the rubber lines. Bad brake fluid is just as bad for the brakes as bad coolant is to your radiator...

If you've rotted out a steel line then I would consider replacing the entire rubber line set.

While OE style rubber lines are more expensive, they are also well proven long term components. It is very rare to replace these lines more than once in the entire life of a car. (Unless some twit oils them....) The fact is that the OE lines out last most cars.

I still can't recomend SS flex lines for the vast majority of cars. While some products now test to DOT standards the longevity of these products is still unknown. It is only recently that any of them started testing to DOT standards. Only about the last 3-4 years... OE rubber lines have met DOT standards since the standard were written in the late 60s to early 70s.

Contrary to popular belief... There is NO measurable hydraulic performance difference between GOOD OE rubber lines and SS lines.

Most people who say SS shows a hydraulic adantage are compairing it to DEFECTIVE OE rubber line.

There is possibly a advantage for SS line in very hot racing environment. The SS lines may not melt when the rotors glow....

Contrary to popular belief... (again) SS flex lines can and do fail.

One of the most common fail modes is for a single strand of the braid to break and punch the liner. Same effect as shoving a straight pin thru the line... no brakes.

The most likely areas for this type of failure are the ends and near support clips. Even loose, un stressed, lines can concentrate enough bending at these places to break strands. It only takes one strand in the right place to punch the liner. (This particular problem is common to many hydraulic systems using steel or stainless steer reinforcement. Brakes, Backhoe, etc.)

SS lines were originally developed for race applications. They are technically tougher but it is also expected that the lines will be replaced on a much shorter time table than they ever would in most street driven vehicles.

Consider that many race cars only last one season/year... Even in that time the car may be totally overhauled several times. When the car last more than one season/year the fact remains that many race cars only drive a faction of the miles.

Even if you say a race vehicle has a life that is 10x tougher than a street car (Which is debateable...) Then the race car's 1000 miles is 10,000 miles on the street.... OE rubber lines typically last 100,000 street miles or more. 200,000 is not uncommon.

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Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. Guess I'll just go eat worms.

go to hotrodtv.com...last week or a couple weeks ago they were showing new products like they always do at the end of there show. there are these new rubber lines out that are like steel braided on the inside I think....they "supposedly" last longer than the all rubber ones and are very light."save you a couple pounds on the track" so look it up....just a suggestion..not trying to step on your toes Ogre(bows down)

quote Most people who say SS shows a hydraulic adantage are comparing it to DEFECTIVE OE rubber line

My 87GT with braided SS teflon brake lines does exhibit better brake performance than my Fieros with standard lines and they are D.O.T. street legal. They also look nice. If you've ever seen the interior of these SS lines they are as "smooth as a whistle". Telfon also has natural lubrication properties and the SS braiding makes the hoses very resistant against swelling. I agree that we need more evidence to confirm their superiority, but my impression is that they are better.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://www.turbochargerpower.com/turbo.htm

Thanks for all the replies. I just went over to the fiero store and purchased these items, looks like I will have new brake line all around. To go with those new brakes.

Qty 1 x Item # 56060 - 1984 FRONT DRIVER'S SIDE BRAKE HOSE @ $25.18 = $25.18
Qty 1 x Item # 56062 - 1984 FRONT PASSENGER'S SIDE BRAKE HOSE @ $25.18 = $25.18
Qty 1 x Item # 56072 - 1984 REAR DRIVER'S SIDE BRAKE HOSE @ $25.60 = $25.60
Qty 1 x Item # 56074 - 1984 REAR PASSENGER'S SIDE BRAKE HOSE @ $25.60 = $25.60
Qty 1 x Item # 56008 - 84-87 STAINLESS STEEL METAL BRAKE LINE SET @ $159.95 = $159.95
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Subtotal : $261.51
Shipping : $15.30
Sales Tax: $0.00
Total : $276.81

Why does my pocket feel lighter now?

I had to look up the SS hardlines... they seem ok. It sounds like they actually thought something out for a change.

Price wise their OE flex lines are only a couple dollars different than what Fierostore wants for SS flex lines. So much for that argument.....

Others,

I'm not adverse to finding a true improovement to OE lines. In a way SS flex line does that for a given aplication.

My main concern is longevity of a product. OE style rubber line lasts many many years. It's well proven long term.

SS Flex lines do not have that proven long life and have a known failure mode that frankly would scare the hell out of me if they were on my street driven car. (This fail mode is common to all metal reinforced hydraulic line.)

I've seen first hand how bad OE style lines can be and still function... I've seen significant area of cord show and the line still worked. (Yes, I replace all those...) It really is amazing how much abuse an OE line can take. The people that say OE line is no good just don't know the facts.

Again, The OE rubber lines have already lasted 15-20 years on most Fiero. How many Fiero or any other vehicle that age are likely to be on the road long enough to need a third set? Bloody few I'd bet.

SS line is well proven for race applications but its longevity is still questionable, even for the DOT stuff. I'm not saying the stuff is bad, I just don't want to see someone killed because of something they put on a few years ago.

As for swelling... To clarify... The swelling problem is limited to the inner rubber layer of the OE lines. The cord layer isn't what swells. Inner layer swelling is always a result of either contaminated fluid or oil soaking thru the outter rubber jacket.

Again... Race products all assume that the product will be inspected/replaced at rather short intervals. Typically every race to every season.

For another example... Race Brake Fluid... These products are often only rated as DOT 3 fluid. The makers expect the stuff to be replaced frequently so they don't worry about the Wet ERBP (Wet Boil).

For that reason I recomend and only use Valvoline Synpower brake fluid. It has a Dry boil point above DOT 5.1 and a Wet boil point above DOT 4. (There is more about this in my cave...)

How much do I like the Synpower... I left Autozone today because they didn't have enough of it to do the master cyl replacement on my Caravan. (I went to Pep Boys who, suprisingly, was actually cheaper on it...) None of the other so called "High Temp" DOT 3 fluids I've seen can meet the specs of the Synpower fluid. Synpower typically runs $5-6 a quart. It's very hard to beat for the money.

numan, did you remember to ask for your 10% discount from the Fiero Store? They give a club discount( Pennocks included) to all non GM original parts.

rodmcneill

I order the parts on-line I did not know they would give us a discount. But from now on I will phone the order in. That 10 percent sure would help.

Thanks for the advice.