Been lurking for about a year but now it's time to write something
A guy over at another forum I visit (SAAB Turbo club of Sweden) has a habit of puting the SAAB 2.3 liter turbo charged enging in different cars. He thought that a Fiero would be the perfect match for this engine.
I know you are all laughing at this puny 2.3l 4-cylinder engine but it can easyly produce +400hp - don't belive me? Check out what SAAB-tuner MapTun has done with it : http://www.maptun.com/cars_9000_fredrik.php?lang=swe
Now to my questions; As some might know SAAB introduced a new engine block and gearbox at about the same time GM became parent company for SAAB. This got me thinking - is there a chance in hell that the Getrag 5-speed gearbox of the fiero bolts on to the SAAB engine block? As they both are GM cars...
Anyone else thought about going "the other way" and make a swap to a smaller displacement turbo charged engine instead of 3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 4.9 and so on?
only the quad 4 guys - I believe the general concern is reliability - when you start using forced induction and making 200hp per liter you tend to sacrifice engine life
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03:58 PM
henrik-a Member
Posts: 57 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: Jul 2003
Ofcorse durability is compromised - but I know quite a few people that have been running these engines for years at close to 300hp. Remember that the SAAB 9-5 Aero which uses this engine gives you 250hp stock with an aditional 20hp overboost for 20 seconds. Wouldn't that be nice in a Fiero? Given the extra power and the weight loss...
The one thing that breaks is often gearboxes as turbo engines, on the contrary of what people usualy thinks, delivers hughe amount of tourqe at relativly low rpms.
[This message has been edited by henrik-a (edited 07-17-2003).]
[This message has been edited by henrik-a (edited 07-17-2003).]
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04:13 PM
FieroBUZZ Member
Posts: 3320 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2001
It's always nice to be able to use a locally sourced engine when modding a foreign car. Guys in the USA don't seem to mind putting US motors in European cars. You're just working the other way round.
Did you find out if the tranny bolt pattern matches the engine? Even if it doesn't it would be an interesting swap, just a little more involved.
Let's hear more.
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04:53 PM
henrik-a Member
Posts: 57 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: Jul 2003
FieroBUZZ> Ofcourse the I'm looking into this swap because of the local connection to SAAB. SAAB engines and parts comes cheap here. Volvo and SAAB are the most common cars here (duh!) and SAABs been turbo charging cars since '78 so the durability problems has pretty much been sorted out Now SAAB doesn't even offer cars without turbos.
I'm not so worried that the engine mounts will fit the Fiero tranny or not. The big concerne is ofcourse the mounting of the Fiero gearbox onto the SAAB engine.
Does anyone have a blueprint, drawing, picture or sketch that shows the bolt layout of the Fiero gearbox (or rather the clutch housing)???
Saab turbos are really nice engines. I had a 9000 Turbo (4 door!) that would put most cars to shame. I can't imagine this engine in a fiero, it would be crazy fast. The engine have been almost the same for like 20 years now. They are built well and very smooth.
Just a stock saab turbo 4 in a fiero, would probably be much faster then most common swaps. It would for sure be faster then any GM V6, with some light moding.
Someone brought this topic up about a year ago. Its someplace in the Tech Archive here.
[This message has been edited by ManiMack (edited 07-17-2003).]
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05:33 PM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
Eh henrik-a.u hav a good idea goning there.i know that gm makes alot of different motors for different companys like saab and saturn and opel..since there is not of alot of gm or saturn motors over here,,maybe saab and opel r the way to go,,i sure hope they both hav the same bellhousing bolt pattern..pls keep me informed
The DOHC 3.0 V6 asymetrical turbo is out of the question. This engine is not as durable as the 4cyl engines made by SAAB. IMHO the V6 is only a marketing thing for markets/countrys that doesn't trust a car if it doesn't have 6-cyl or more.
The turbo setup in this 6-cyl is also mounted for marketing purpose only - it gives verry little boost and doesn't even have a wastegate. I think it exists just so SAAB can say they have turbos in every car they make.
Well well... I know that the original SAAB engine (now sadly retired) pre dates the GM takeover. But as they did changes in the block and gearboxes in the mid 90s I figured that hade something to do with GM and their wishes.
[This message has been edited by henrik-a (edited 07-18-2003).]
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04:03 AM
AusFiero Member
Posts: 11513 From: Dapto NSW Australia Registered: Feb 2001
I have often thought about putting a SR20Det engine from a Nissan in the Fiero. They are cheap here and can get high HP easily. It is just the fact that it would sound different has put me off in my fastback.
In stock form they can beat a Diablo to 100mph. And beat a Fighter jet down a runway to 100mph. Anyone remember the TV advert where the 9000 Aero got down the runway quicker than the Jet did ??. They are seriously fast and under-rated cars.
I have also owned older 9000's and classic 900 turbo Aero's.
Phyically the B202 and B203 4 cylinder Turbo engines are very large. They are on a 40 degree tilt and have huge inlet manifolds. I dont think it would be possible to sqeeze one into a Fiero's engine bay.
------------------ Regards,
Paul Taylor, England. 85 GT Notchback, 2.8 V6, 4 speed manual. Custom made Tubular branch exhaust manifolds with true twin 3in exhaust system. No CAT, No EGR. No Crossover pipe. ADS Road Race SuperChip & 160 deg stat. Poly bushes all round. Lowered 2 inches. 16" alloys with 225/45 rubber. 0-60mph in 5.5 sec. www.fieroforum.co.uk/Paul85gt.htm
I'm building a turbo Quad4, and we're expecting about 350rwhp at 15psi and over 500fwhp at 22psi. Also, it will have great weight distribution for autocrossing. I'm one of the few (if only) people who switched from a V6 to a straight 4. Anyway, I'm all for making a high tech smaller engine =) Good luck figuring stuff out. --Bryson
------------------ 88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo...It has begun 88 VW GTI 16v 90 Olds Calais International H.O. 88 Fiero Formula
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04:12 PM
henrik-a Member
Posts: 57 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: Jul 2003
Paul Taylor> You are correct in stating that the B202 and B203 are physicly large engines (for 4-cyl engines anyway).
These engines used a 45-degree "half v8" block made by Triumph. The block on the later 9000 models, preferable the "short block" engine from 1994-2002 do not have 45-degree tilt.
The intake mainfold is...not huge on these engines but a litte bit bigger than the V6 and the throttle body is facing the rear of the car. Even if i doubt it to be necessary one can allways use the trunk if space is needed
The prefered engine for this swap is the B235R found in 9-3 Viggen (225hp) and 9-5 Aero(230hp). It uses the Mitsubishi TD04HL-15T turbo.
I've been thinking about this today and with a lot of looking down the Fieros engine compartment, as well down my '97 900, I figured that it would be more easy to adapt the drive axels of the Fiero to the SAAB gearbox than to adapt the Fiero gearbox to the SAAB engine.
What do you guys think? Anybody else placed a new fwd engine with gearbox into the FIero?
Henrik
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05:34 PM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
Eh ..now i was doing some more thinking here..my problems that i came up is this..i found a site that shows that the euorpeian opel has in fact the same bell housing as gm..now i am sure as hell the saab has it too..now u hav 2 choices what to do,,bolt it up to the factory trans or try to mount the saab engine and trans combo..think maybe the saab trans would handle more hp and tq then the fiero 1's..any one can make mounts and some one to make custom axles.now what is chewing my cookie is how or what r u goning to use for the electronics..trying to make the stock ecm to splice in to the fiero(thats undiscover land in my case,,even to find a good aftermarket ecm maybe better..now i am not back home in canada any more so founding a shop to make axles is a great feat.dont even think about shipping because it cost a ton to get it here then u pay a **** load of stupid taxes..
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06:09 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1646 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Hey, did you guys forget the Ecotech? I have spoken with the outfit that builds their race engines and was told that they were able to get an engine to produce over 300 hp on their first attempt. BTW, thats normally aspirated. With lots of boost, it makes LOTS of power... and since it is all aluminum (block and head) it is even lighter than the Quad 4.
------------------ FierOmar
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07:28 PM
virii01 Member
Posts: 515 From: Lincoln, NE, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by Paul Taylor: 2 years ago i owned a Saab 9000 Aero 2.3 Turbo. In stock form they can beat a Diablo to 100mph. And beat a Fighter jet down a runway to 100mph.
Um, no offense but I think you are having delusions of grandeur. A Saab 9000 Aero Turbo from what I have found weighs about 3400lbs, and has 225HP & 258lb/ft torque. The Diablo weighs some ~400-500lbs more but has 492HP and 428lb/ft torque. The Saab runs 0-100 in about 18.5 seconds, while the Diablo can do it in about 10 seconds.
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07:44 PM
Jul 19th, 2003
henrik-a Member
Posts: 57 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: Jul 2003
ducattiman> It seems as the only way to go to find out if the engien bolts up to the gearbox is to have both engines and gearboxes in front of you. I really hope to find some pictures soon showing both engines bolt layout.
As for electronics I'm planning on keeping the Trionic5-ECU and it's wiering harness. It has one major issue though as it needs an ABS-break signal from one of the wheels in order to determin the vehicles current speed. It must know the speed so it can calculate wich gear it is in. It does this so it can have a lower turbo boost in 1st and 2nd gear.
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04:15 AM
Paul Taylor Member
Posts: 383 From: Reading, Berkshire, ENGLAND Registered: Oct 2002
Um, no offense but I think you are having delusions of grandeur. A Saab 9000 Aero Turbo from what I have found weighs about 3400lbs, and has 225HP & 258lb/ft torque. The Diablo weighs some ~400-500lbs more but has 492HP and 428lb/ft torque. The Saab runs 0-100 in about 18.5 seconds, while the Diablo can do it in about 10 seconds.
I'm afraid you are very wrong on this subject. The main selling campaign in Europe for the SAAB 9000 Aero 2.3T was that it could beat a Diablo to 100mph. I still have the advertising poster stuck on the wall behind my computer right now. 0-100 in 18.5 seconds !! are you kidding !. My old 1984 Saab 900T 8v used to clear 100 in 14.5 sec I am the moderator for www.saabec.co.uk and actually done my Apprenticeship in a SAAB dealership. I also owned my own business "The SAAB Clinic" which ran for 8 years in the UK. The SAAB UK community considers myself to be one of the leading Authorities in SAAB tuning in the UK. So i do know my SAAB's........
------------------ Regards,
Paul Taylor, England. 85 GT Notchback, 2.8 V6, 4 speed manual. Custom made Tubular branch exhaust manifolds with true twin 3in exhaust system. No CAT, No EGR. No Crossover pipe. ADS Road Race SuperChip & 160 deg stat. Poly bushes all round. Lowered 2 inches. 16" alloys with 225/45 rubber. 0-60mph in 5.5 sec. www.fieroforum.co.uk/Paul85gt.htm
paul ask your SAAB guys if the newer SAAB 4 will bolt in swap in to older saabs or if the v6 saab can be swaped into older saabs
All of the new SAAB 4 cyl engines will bolt into the older ones. With the exception of the "Classic" 900 where the gearbox is on the bottom of the engine. But the differences in the Trionic management systems and the DI cartridges would make swapping a nightmare. The V6 uses all the same mounts and gearboxes as the B20* series 4 cyl engines, so from that i would say swapping would be possible. But again the electronics would be a nightmare.
On a different note... Did you know the Saab Trionic Management systems are the most advanced management systems in the world ?? In tests in London UK, the exhaust gases coming out of the exhaust on a Saab 9000 2.3T Aero was actually cleaner than the air going into the air box !!!.
The 9000 2.3T is also in the Guinness Book of Records as the only car in the World that can clean the air around it as it drives.
And, did you know.... With the speed restrictor taken off the 9000 2.3T Aero can just about clear 180mph.
------------------ Regards,
Paul Taylor, England. 85 GT Notchback, 2.8 V6, 4 speed manual. Custom made Tubular branch exhaust manifolds with true twin 3in exhaust system. No CAT, No EGR. No Crossover pipe. ADS Road Race SuperChip & 160 deg stat. Poly bushes all round. Lowered 2 inches. 16" alloys with 225/45 rubber. 0-60mph in 5.5 sec. www.fieroforum.co.uk/Paul85gt.htm
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01:48 PM
henrik-a Member
Posts: 57 From: Stockholm, Sweden Registered: Jul 2003
The NEW SAAB engines, the all aluminium ones found in the 9-3 SportSedan/SportSaloon, I beleve have new bolt patterns on their gearboxes. But a guy in Trollhättan (the home town of SAAB) says that you can use the gearbox housing of the diesel engine if you want to bolt the new six speed gearbox onto the old cast iron block! Mind that the new gearboxes are controlled by wire and the old ones by a pushrod.
But I'm stuck in my research about how the boltpattern matches the one in the SAAB.
By the way, the marketing slogan I remember was "The 5-speed Saab 9000 Aero will streak from 50 to 75 mph faster than a Ferrari Testarossa or a Porsche Carrera 4"
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02:19 PM
virii01 Member
Posts: 515 From: Lincoln, NE, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by Paul Taylor: I'm afraid you are very wrong on this subject. The main selling campaign in Europe for the SAAB 9000 Aero 2.3T was that it could beat a Diablo to 100mph. I still have the advertising poster stuck on the wall behind my computer right now. 0-100 in 18.5 seconds !! are you kidding !. My old 1984 Saab 900T 8v used to clear 100 in 14.5 sec I am the moderator for www.saabec.co.uk and actually done my Apprenticeship in a SAAB dealership. I also owned my own business "The SAAB Clinic" which ran for 8 years in the UK. The SAAB UK community considers myself to be one of the leading Authorities in SAAB tuning in the UK. So i do know my SAAB's........
Well I don't claim to know my Saabs, but unless I'm thinking of a different car than you, I'm still doubting it can best a Diablo too 100mph. I don't know how correct this information is, but this page: http://webpages.charter.net/ralimi/aero/aero-reviews.html shows that it runs the quarter in 14.8 seconds, and 0-100 in 15.9. Fast, but still behind the Diablos (this being a 1991 RWD model) quarter mile time of less than 13 seconds and 0-100 of around 10 seconds. Maybe you could point me in the direction of the Saab you are talking about which beats the Diablo to clear up my apparent confusion.
