I just found this website http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm and discovered that W-bodies with the 282 Getrag had a different gearset than everyone else. Presumably this is because the W-body is a pretty heavy car for an anemic POS little 2.8 or 3.1 and they wanted to give it some semblance of acceleration. I haven't found the RPO for the W-body trans yet.

The ratios, along with the performance gearing from www.mantapart.com are tabulated here:

code:

---

Trans        1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th
MG2 (Fiero)  3.50  2.05  1.38  0.94  0.72
W-body       3.77  2.19  1.38  1.02  0.81
Mantapart    3.50  2.05  1.38  1.02  0.87

---

Here are the splits (percent of shift RPM the engine's turning after the shift):

code:

---

Trans        1-2   2-3   3-4   4-5
MG2 (Fiero)  0.59  0.67  0.68  0.77
W-body       0.58  0.63  0.74  0.79
Mantapart    0.59  0.67  0.74  0.85

---

Notice that the 1-2 splits are very low for all gear sets. This translates to a large RPM drop and a huge gap between 1st and 2nd. I know that I think that gap is way too big and I've heard a lot of other people complaining about it also.

Now, if we take the Fiero 1st & 5th, the W-body 2nd, 3rd & 4th, look at what we get:

code:

---

Hybrid Ratios 3.50  2.19  1.38  1.02  0.72
Splits           0.63  0.63  0.74  0.70

---

Notice that the 1-2 split goes from 0.59 to 0.63, which is a very good improvement. In my case with stock trans and a 6400 RPM shift, I end up at 3,776 in 2nd gear, which is a little below my power band (4400 TQ peak). With the hybrid gearing I end up at 4,032 RPM in 2nd. This sounds very nice to me because I currently feel like I have to shift on the rev limiter in order to get a decent pull once I shift into 2nd. Another benefit is that the 1-2 shift will be faster because the 2nd gear synchro doesn't have to overcome as large an RPM difference as it does with the stock gears.

The 2-3 split unfortunately widens from 0.67 to 0.63, but this is exactly the same as the 1-2 split. Since the same 3rd gear is used, you won't lose any pull in 3rd, you'll just gain it in 2nd. A 1.46 3rd gear would be ideal here

The 3-4 split is significantly closer than stock for you insane people who race to REALLY illegal speeds.

The 4-5 split is another place where the hybrid gearing departs significantly from stock. The stock gearing has a very European slant in that 1st is very deep so that a high strung engine can get the car moving, 2-3-4 are tallish with even split (road racing gears), and 5th is very close to 4th so that a small engine trying to maintain Autobahn speeds has a prayer of doing so.
By dropping 2nd and 4th the transmission becomes more V8 friendly, with the splits more even across the board. As I said before, a 1.46 3rd gear would be ideal, but is unfortunately not available. If you keep the Fiero 4th you get a smoother progression of splits, but I'd rather have the 1.02 4th for better acceleration.

Since you'd be using the Fiero 5th gear, you don't sacrifice any highway RPM for the benefits of much nicer gearing.

The SBC guys would probably want to keep the 3.61 final drive of the Fiero trans. For my Northstar, I think I'd like the 3.94 final from a Quad 4 transmission (I'm tired of having torqueless imports with final gears well into the 4's keeping up with me to 60 ) I know the 3.94 will increase highway RPM, but it should still be livable (3300 at 90 vs 3000 at 90).

I have in my garage a '93 Getrag with hydraulic release bearing which will be the recipient of this treatment when I can spare the time to disassemble and overhaul it.

EDIT: does anybody know how to contact the owner of the website I linked? I can't find an e-mail address anywhere on it.

------------------
'87 Fiero GT: Northstar, Getrag, TGP wheels, rear sway bar, rod end links, bushings, etc.

'90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: Leaking ABS unit fixed, load levelling rear suspension fixed, still slow

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-05-2003).]

Will, It was mainly to support the torque curve of the higher revving engines with the heavy W-body cars. The 282 for those applications got beefed up a bit and renamed the 284. The RPO for those 282s is MG2 and the RPO for the 284 is M27. The MG2s are very rare and the M27s are rare. I've seen one MG2 in a turbo GP that a yard had cobbled up and was trying to sell.

Here's a link with some background info
http://www.w-body.com/firstgen/grandprix.html

RTFP! It really pisses me off when people read half of what I write, think I don't know what I'm talking about and try to correct me.

I know the difference between a 282 and a 284. The 284 ratios are different still. Did you even look at the webpage I linked?

MG2 is the RPO for the FIERO 282 Getrag. I don't know if this RPO was shared with the identically geared transmissions used in Cavaliers, Berettas, etc. Probably not, because of the shift shaft differences.

M27 is the RPO for the 284 Getrag. The 284 was used ONLY with the LQ1 3.4 TDC engine.

The gears I am talking about were used in the W-body 282 Getrag behind the aluminum head 2.8 and 3.1 engines. I don't know the RPO for this transmission.

I've seen the site you posted and it's incomplete. The 2.8's and 3.1's were available with manual transmissions. I know this because I saw one in a junk yard.

If it works count me in!

Great Idea/Find!

------------------


What does the future hold for "Fusion"?

400hp @ 9,000rpm destroked Northstar, 5 speed, .25 Cod, 25mpg!

Coming in 2010! :)

Very interesting.

I'd like the transmission you want to build, but with the .87 5th gear. This might make 5th gear actually usable in my race car.

Keep us posted.

------------------
Doug Chase
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (autocrosser)
'88 Fiero GT 5-spd (daily driver)
'85 Fiero GT 5-spd (rally car)
'87 Fiero SE V6 5-spd (for sale $2200)
'88 Fiero Formula 5-spd (parts car / future rally car #2)
Custom roll cage fabrication available
Custom exhaust fabrication available

quote Originally posted by Will: RTFP! It really pisses me off when people read half of what I write, think I don't know what I'm talking about and try to correct me. I know the difference between a 282 and a 284. The 284 ratios are different still. Did you even look at the webpage I linked? MG2 is the RPO for the FIERO 282 Getrag. I don't know if this RPO was shared with the identically geared transmissions used in Cavaliers, Berettas, etc. Probably not, because of the shift shaft differences. M27 is the RPO for the 284 Getrag. The 284 was used ONLY with the LQ1 3.4 TDC engine. The gears I am talking about were used in the W-body 282 Getrag behind the aluminum head 2.8 and 3.1 engines. I don't know the RPO for this transmission. I've seen the site you posted and it's incomplete. The 2.8's and 3.1's were available with manual transmissions. I know this because I saw one in a junk yard.

RTFP! It really pisses me off when people read half of what I write, think I don't know what I'm talking about and try to correct me.

If you're referring to me I read ALL of your post but you seem to have read only half of mine. Didn't make any mention as to your knowledge on the subject. Don't see any text correcting anything you stated.

MG2 is the RPO for the FIERO 282 Getrag. I don't know if this RPO was shared with the identically geared transmissions used in Cavaliers, Berettas, etc. Probably not, because of the shift shaft differences.

I realize the MG2 is the RPO for the Fiero Getrag as it is the RPO for other GM models. RPO codes are not necessarily redefined for models, gear ratios or other slight differences. WS6 comes to mind...

I know the difference between a 282 and a 284. The 284 ratios are different still.

I don't think I implied that you don't know the diff between the two. My point was that GM took the more aggressive gearing from the 282 with performance gearing, tweaked it for that application (LQ1) and applied it to a slightly stronger transmission (the 284).

I've seen the site you posted and it's incomplete. The 2.8's and 3.1's were available with manual transmissions. I know this because I saw one in a junk yard.

"Incomplete" is subjective. The site also has some errors but speaks of the transmission you are looking for. The rare comment was on the Grand Prixs with 3.1 and the 282 combo. In '89 & '90 the Grand Prix was the ONLY W-body offered w/ the 282 (switched to the 5TM40 in '90). Personally that is the only car w/ that combo I've seen in all of my visits to the salvage yard. That doesn't make it rare but does follow the pattern that a smaller volume car combo is seen less frquently in the salvage yard.

Now you may talking of a very rare application (one off) version of a 282 but I seriously doubt it as GM typically doesn't do that sort of thing.

The best way to find it is talk w/ a Pontiac parts guy/gal that knows their stuff. Have them look up the ID tag model codes to desc. and gear ratios to find the transmission model number (not HM-282 or 5TM40) that you are looking for. Within a transmission family (HM 282 for instance), there are exact transmission model numbers that describe ratios, TC (if automatics) and other intra-model differences.

Keeping this in every ones mind who has a Getrag. It is a great possibility for auto x'ers. Good job Will.

------------------
Help, Someone has lit a Fiero in my a#@!

quote Originally posted by Will: I just found this website http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm EDIT: does anybody know how to contact the owner of the website I linked? I can't find an e-mail address anywhere on it.

If you can't find it anywhere, you can do a WhoIs lookup and find out the e-mail address of the owner of the domain.

quote Originally posted by 87GTZ34:

I apologize. I came across a little too strongly. From some of the things you said (high revving?) it sounded like you were talking about the 284 and only the 284. Anyway...

I disagree with you about why the gearing is different. Compare the Fiero gearing with W-body and 284 gearing:

code:

---

        1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th
Fiero   3.50  2.05  1.38  0.94  0.72
W-body  3.77  2.19  1.38  1.03  0.81
284     3.46  2.28  1.48  1.09  0.72
Splits  1-2   2-3   3-4   4-5
Fiero   0.59  0.67  0.68  0.77
W-body  0.58  0.63  0.75  0.79
284     0.66  0.65  0.74  0.66

---

Look at the difference. The W-body gearing is even more "European" (small engine, big car), with a slightly wider 1-2, noticeably wider 2-3, narrower 3-4 and 4-5 splits than the Fiero gearing. The W-body gearing starts off with wide splits that decrease dramatically. Why does an engine need such a short jump to top gear? Because it's working hard; small engine, big car. The 2.8 and 3.1 aluminum head engines were not much higher revving than the iron head engines, if at all.

The 284 gearing is much closer to having even splits with a much closer 1-2 split, and the 2-3 split in the same ballpark. The 284 is geared more closely for a higher revving engine, i.e. the TDC, but not the pushrod engines.

The MG2 may have been rare in W-bodies, but it was NOT rare overall, being used in the Fiero, and probably under the same RPO in Cavaliers, Berettas, Corsicas, etc. That wasn't clarified in your first post or on that website.

Some yard had cobbled together a manual trans TGP? Cool. Wish it were that easy in a Fiero.

My biggest concern is the over all speed vs. low RPM on the 5 gear.
I'm considering having a Getrag rebuilt, but I'm not very well educated in the subject of gearing...

The chart on the website http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm show a chart of the gears in actual MPH
So based on that this site says the best stock Getrag to get would be

1) Getrag 282 W-Body
2) Getrag 284

Does this sound correct..??

The 284 is a completely differant trans than the 282. The diff and axles and larger,. The case has way more webing around the diff. All the way around is a more durable trans. I have one in my 88gt and the swap is a major b%^&&* and ive been doing custom engine installs in street rods and such for 12 yrs.

quote Originally posted by Will: I have in my garage a '93 Getrag with hydraulic release bearing which will be the recipient of this treatment when I can spare the time to disassemble and overhaul it.

Will,

FYI, I have confirmed (i.e. I bought one) that 1998 Dodge Stratus differential bearing shims will fit the GM Getrag. And the final word from GMparts direct is that they are not available from GM.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: Will, FYI, I have confirmed (i.e. I bought one) that 1998 Dodge Stratus differential bearing shims will fit the GM Getrag. And the final word from GMparts direct is that they are not available from GM.

That's nice to know. Around last Christmas I overhauled the trans I'm using now. I was able to get a shim set then. I don't remember where I got it, but I'll see if I can go back and find my info.

Will, here's a little whois action:

[bushroot@icarus bushroot]$ whois brian89gp.com
[Querying whois.internic.net]
[Redirected to whois.godaddy.com]
[Querying whois.godaddy.com]
[whois.godaddy.com]
Please note: the owner of the domain name is specified in the "registrant" field.
In most cases, the Registrar is not the owner of domain names listed in this database.


Registrant:
none
10900 SE 375 RD
Collins, Missouri 64738
United States

Registered through: Domains Priced Right
Domain Name: BRIAN89GP.COM
Created on: 30-May-02
Expires on: 30-May-04
Last Updated on: 30-May-03

Administrative Contact:
Srch, Brian brian89gp@hotmal.com
none
10900 SE 375 RD
Collins, Missouri 64738
United States
(816) 305-2035 Fax --
Technical Contact:
Srch, Brian brian89gp@hotmal.com
none
10900 SE 375 RD
Collins, Missouri 64738
United States
(816) 305-2035 Fax --

Domain servers in listed order:
NS12.GENERICDNS.COM
NS13.GENERICDNS.COM
[bushroot@icarus bushroot]$

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 06-01-2003).]

I've been messing with some gear calculations myself and created a chart to help visualize the RPM vs. MPH on multiple trannies. I added the "hybrid" ratios that Will is considering using the 3.94 final drive.

Comparison Image

If anybody wants to tweak the excel file themselves, here's the document.

I've got a 282 Getrag from an SCX, the 3.94 final drive. I chose it because I feel it has the best gear cluster out of the stock trannny choices for the 282 to use in my 3.4 DOHC racecar. It is very similar to Will's hybrid tranny choices, with exception to 5th gear. I don't know that the extra money spent on the W-body and Mantapart gears would be justifiable for my application, since I'll be running less than 2000 pounds and my budget equally miniscule.

Will, are you sure that you can buy the Mantapart 3rd gear individually? I suppose they probably would sell it, just wonder what it would cost.

As far as the rarity of the W-body gears, I doubt they're any harder to find than the SCX or 284, and I've seen a few of them for sale for good prices in the last three months or so. I hadn't planned on getting the SCX tranny, but it was such a good deal and big performance improvement over the Isuzu that I had, I couldn't pass it up!

Bryce
88 GT

Remember that the SCX uses the same gearing as the Fiero, but has the 3.94 FD.

I've e-mailed you my spreadsheet with a chart that illustrates what I'm trying to get across. Could you please .jpg it and post it here? Thanks

quote Originally posted by Will: Remember that the SCX uses the same gearing as the Fiero, but has the 3.94 FD. I've e-mailed you my spreadsheet with a chart that illustrates what I'm trying to get across. Could you please .jpg it and post it here? Thanks

So the link above ( http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm ) that lists the SCX gears to be different is incorrect??? Can you verify this? I'll be pretty disappointed if that's true. I have information from these places that support that website:
http://www.geocities.com/lbsr4lif/oldsAchieva.html http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofwmc.htm

They only mention the .81 fifth gear, which does correlate with brian's SCX list and does NOT with the Fiero gears. Since this was the only internet pages I could find with SCX details, I trusted brian's ratios to be correct. I can't find any official information anywhere, don't have access to a service manual for the 93 SCX.

My dad will be disassembling the transmission very soon, I'll have him count the gear teeth to get a definite answer on what the ratios are.

Bryce
88 GT

quote Originally posted by Nashco: So the link above ( http://www.brian89gp.com/other/transmission.htm ) that lists the SCX gears to be different is incorrect??? Can you verify this? I'll be pretty disappointed if that's true. I have information from these places that support that website: http://www.geocities.com/lbsr4lif/oldsAchieva.html http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofwmc.htm They only mention the .81 fifth gear, which does correlate with brian's SCX list and does NOT with the Fiero gears. Since this was the only internet pages I could find with SCX details, I trusted brian's ratios to be correct. I can't find any official information anywhere, don't have access to a service manual for the 93 SCX. My dad will be disassembling the transmission very soon, I'll have him count the gear teeth to get a definite answer on what the ratios are. Bryce 88 GT

Apologies. I was thinking of the general Q4 gears. Yes, the SCX appears to have a different gearset, but only in 4th and 5th (These are the same as the W-body 4th and 5th, BTW). I'm much more concerned with 2nd and 3rd, since I spend most of my acceleration time in those gears.

I'll have to find out if it's only the SCX transmissions that have the 3.94 FD.

The 3.94 FD is also available from www.mantapart.com for ~$800

Phew, you had me scared there. As I said, I'm going to have the teeth counted and verify the gear ratios on the 'net. From what I've read, the 3.94 final drive was only available on the HO Quad Four motors, which is why I jumped at the opportunity to get it. I paid half as much for the whole tranny as mantapart is asking for the final drive set...but of course the one I got has well over 100k miles, and their's is new. I got a good deal at a tranny shop for a new output shaft for the Fiero a couple weeks ago, I'm considering calling them to see what's available for the SCX tranny gears just out of curiosity.

Was the car you got your Q4 Getrag from a W41 (HO)? Let me know what you find out; of course the best way to see what you've got is to tear it apart if you're going to be rebuilding anyway. When looking for SCX tranny information, I read where one guy had an SCX that was rebuilt with the 3.61 final drive somewhere along the lines...doh!

Bryce
88 GT

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

I can't believe I did something so stupid!

I got my wires crossed somewhere along the line. There's no 1.45 3rd for the Getrag. That's an Isuzu ratio. The 2.19 2nd gear is still correct, but this changes my numbers.

Grr... I don't have much time right now, but I'll go back later and fix my first post.

Most if not all the gears you guys are talking about here are standard gears used on various Quad 4 Getrags. There were variations in the gear ratios on the Quad 4 Getrags thru the years while all 282 V-6 GM Getrags have the same gears.

I know that they are stock gears from various applications. Do you have a list of exactly which applications got which ratios? I'd love to see that. I'm still hunting down all the part numbers involved.

Here's an e-mail I received from Mantapart:

quote 2.19 is std. 2nd gear on all the boxes except the V6, they are plentiful, and we would only possibly have a used one?? the 3/4 gear set is a cluster, you would have to buy both gears, sorry. 3.94 final drive was used in all '92 and up transaxles w/ internal release bearings. MP

...which conflicts with the information from www.brian89gp.com Who's right, and how do we determine?

I told someone else on another forum, I cannot remember where I found the w-body 282 gearing originally. I put that page together close to 2 years ago and I just can't remember. (btw, I found reference to the 282 and NV 550 found in the Beretta and it has the same gearing as I have listed for the Quad 4)

If someone can prove me wrong then I'll happily change it.

I had left my email off the site on purpose. First those robots that hunt through websites for any and all email addresses always seem to find me. Second you would not believe the amount of very stupid questions I got ranging from what tire size do I have what engine oil do I use. 75-100 spam messages and 10 or so people bugging me who I did not want to talk to each and every day. Being a recluse solved that problem :P

[This message has been edited by brian89gp (edited 07-17-2003).]

That was me on the other forum.

The NVG T550 is just the new name for the same design manufactured at the New Venture Gear plant instead of the Muncie plant.

INFO!!

Bear in mind that I don't have a complete list of years for either RPO yet...

The 88-89 Calais and 93 Achieva used an MY5 transmission which has different 4th and 5th gears than the Fiero transmission.

The 90 Cutlass (W-body) uses an MU1 transmission which has the same 4th and 5th as the MY5, but different 1st and 2nd gear P/N's.

The 3.77 1st was paired with the 2.19 2nd (both input gears integral on the input shaft), which is problematic. I want the 2.19 2nd, but only if I could use it with the Fiero's stock 3.50 1st gear.

I wonder if someone could cut me a shaft with the 3.50 1st gear and the 2.19 2nd gear... DKOV?