I'm still kicking around the Northstar idea instead of the Chevy 350 mainly due to weight and the fact that I don't think the getrag can truely handle the 400horses I'm gonna throw at it (with the way I'll drive it).

Anyway, the question is simple:

Can I buy the Northstar engine/tranny combo, hook them up electrically, and get them to WORK in the car? What special parts are needed? (Axels, adapaters, etc).

Has anyone done this?

Thanks guys.

A N* will bolt right up to a stock fiero trani. You will need to notch the bellhousing for the cadillac starter. There is not much if any weight savings going from a sbc with aluminum heads to a N*. The * has huge DOHC heads which adds quite a bit of bulk to the engine. If you want a lighter V-8 go with a cadillac 4.9 It also bolts right up to the fiero transmission and is a much easier swap. 4.9 delivers over 200hp and 275 torque. A N* is around 300/285.

4.9 is one of the better autocrosing engines there are. Lots of out of the hole torque and about the same weight as a fiero V-6.

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87GT 4.9 in progress!

For around $780 CHRFAB will send you some cams and lifters. then you need to go and get a tach that will read 8500RPM.

I am working on a Northstar manual tranny car with a 96 Vin 9 300hp motor and CHRFAB's 288 cams.. with some head work these puppies are good for an additional 75hp.

375hp , 4 cam 32 valve... mmmmMMmmmmm

In anycase. Chris moore is probably your best bet for an auto tranny swap he is on his 5th build up I believe. you need to use cadillac Allante outer hubs , ponitac 6000HD (5x115) spindles and custom axles. Chris gets his from Moser (sp?) enginnering. The harness can be had through Howell. The cradle needs to be modified to accept the wider bottom end of the northstar. You wil need a trany cooler if yur car didn't start off life as an auto. And most conversionihave seen have been solid mounted.

The biggest advantage over a mismatched combo (which I am also guilty of building N*+ 4spd) is reliability. The 3.8SC and Northstar are the ultimate in reliable swaps PERIOD. The factory designed the engine to go with the tranny.

Chris's last car he built turned a 12.9@ 108 bone stock frst time out. Not bad for a car that idles like a caddy and has AC.

Plus , you can't beat that V8 sound. If you don't wanna tacle the cradle mod chris will sell you a cradle , pre modded and ready to bolt your engine and tranny too

JM

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Jonathan McCreery
86 GT Northstar
86 SE autocrosser in progress

SAVE THE SHAUN!!!

Doesn't the N* starter mount in the valley between the heads under the intake???

Dragon1/Brian

The N* starter is in the Vee of the engine, and you have to grind clearance in the Fiero tranny bellhousing for that. Also, 1 bellhousing bolt hole doesn't line up, but you can make an adapter pretty easy.

If weight is your primary concern, don't forget the extra 200lbs the N* tranny weighs. It's about 300lbs, compared to a Getrag's ~100lbs. So, unless that N* weighs at least 200lbs less than a SBC, you're still going to be heavier.

Another tranny option is a beefed 4t65e, which is lighter than the N* tranny, but still heavier than the Getrag. It might be a good compromise, though, and they can be built to take modded 3800SC's, so it should be strong enough for you.

Personally, I'd have to have the 5-speed. But that's just my opinion.

A Northstar IS lighter than a small block Chevy. However, as has been mentioned above, the 4T80E auto trans weighs 300 lbs. If you want to save weight with a Northstar, you must use a manual transmission.

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: For around $780 CHRFAB will send you some cams and lifters. then you need to go and get a tach that will read 8500RPM. I am working on a Northstar manual tranny car with a 96 Vin 9 300hp motor and CHRFAB's 288 cams.. with some head work these puppies are good for an additional 75hp. 375hp , 4 cam 32 valve... mmmmMMmmmmm In anycase. Chris moore is probably your best bet for an auto tranny swap he is on his 5th build up I believe. you need to use cadillac Allante outer hubs , ponitac 6000HD (5x115) spindles and custom axles. Chris gets his from Moser (sp?) enginnering. The harness can be had through Howell. The cradle needs to be modified to accept the wider bottom end of the northstar. You wil need a trany cooler if yur car didn't start off life as an auto. And most conversionihave seen have been solid mounted. The biggest advantage over a mismatched combo (which I am also guilty of building N*+ 4spd) is reliability. The 3.8SC and Northstar are the ultimate in reliable swaps PERIOD. The factory designed the engine to go with the tranny. Chris's last car he built turned a 12.9@ 108 bone stock frst time out. Not bad for a car that idles like a caddy and has AC. Plus , you can't beat that V8 sound. If you don't wanna tacle the cradle mod chris will sell you a cradle , pre modded and ready to bolt your engine and tranny too JM

12.9@108mph!! Damn that is awesome. I never knew they ran that good. Put the bottle on it and some head work and your off to running 11's!

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Maroon 1987 GT 5 spd: 2.8L
Ferrari Red 1988 Formula 5 spd: 3.4L

My Website: http://www.members.cox.net/rare88/

The reason I am asking if the regular caddy tranny (say a 1997 Deville engine/tranny) would fit is because I am currently an automatic.

I HATE turning 3400rpms at 70mph on the freeway...it's just insane. I understand Fieros were made when 55mph was the U.S. norm, but I don't want that for my daily driver now days.

My original plan was a 400hp SBC w/aluminum heads (to save weight) and going with the getrag....but several people have told me the getrag won't hold up to hard driving....I will admit...I enjoy laying rubber, perhaps a bit too much :-)

I know people like California Kid have this exact setup, but I have been told they drive their cars fairly mild compared to a speed hungry person like me.

Thus is why I thought the cadillac 4speed Automatic swapped in would work well....and since I would be buying a donor car (so I could get ALL of the electronics...including swapping in the instrument cluster) I figured the auto would be the best way to go.

I PREFER a stick shift.
I PREFER the ez of the SBC
however, I'm still afraid it won't hold up to my punishment....

Thoughts?

PS - I meant to say this in the original post...I'm sorry if this has been discussed before...I'm no longer employeed and busted back to a crappy dialup {try 24.4 connection speeds most of the time} and trying to do a "search" on this forum sucks.

quote Originally posted by TBK: I HATE turning 3400rpms at 70mph on the freeway...it's just insane. I understand Fieros were made when 55mph was the U.S. norm, but I don't want that for my daily driver now days.

My car turns ~2700 in 5th @ 80 with Getrag and 255/50-16 tires.

quote My original plan was a 400hp SBC w/aluminum heads (to save weight) and going with the getrag....but several people have told me the getrag won't hold up to hard driving....I will admit...I enjoy laying rubber, perhaps a bit too much :-) I know people like California Kid have this exact setup, but I have been told they drive their cars fairly mild compared to a speed hungry person like me.

You've been told? Buddy, welcome to the internet. Why don't you dump the third party information and go straight to the source. CalKid, Crazyd, Tina and a few others have engines in that power range. Yes, transmissions have been broken, sometimes purposely, sometimes not. That happens when you put 2 times the design torque through a transmission. Overall, transmissions don't break every day, though, and the Getrag has established quite a good reliability record with that power level, considering what it was used for in production.

I am still wanting a N* stick as the motor canbe aftermarket FI and spark controled, but the EL-trick auto is a real pain to figure out shifts and stock chips are wanting everything from the caddy or limp mode only
has anyone found a aftermarket controler for the 80 trans???or got a 65-60 to live behind a N*
or actualy tryed the stock 3 speed auto, [will the other auto trans's spin over 6000 and livelong?????
any real luck getting the chip from the N*caddy to work in the fiero???for how long and at what cost???

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

I'm using a 2000 DeVille engine with a Getrag and aftermarket engine management. The Northstar is much lighter than the SBC. I agree with Will, the Northstar with a manual is a pretty light setup. Actually, when I pulled the heads on the Northstar, I put it on the engine stand myself. It remains to be seen how well the Getrag holds up to the Northstar. I'm having some work done to mine just to be on the safe side.

quote Originally posted by bushroot: I'm using a 2000 DeVille engine with a Getrag and aftermarket engine management. The Northstar is much lighter than the SBC. I agree with Will, the Northstar with a manual is a pretty light setup. Actually, when I pulled the heads on the Northstar, I put it on the engine stand myself. It remains to be seen how well the Getrag holds up to the Northstar. I'm having some work done to mine just to be on the safe side.

I don't do redline clutch dumps, but my Getrag has been fine for a year and a half. What kind of "work" are you having done to it?

I don't know how prices compare, but it sounds to me like a Corvette crate engine LS1 would do the job, and I would think it would be just as light if not lighter as the northstar becuase of the all aluminum block. The LS1 I heard was also extremely tunable and you shouldn't have trouble getting 400hp out of it. However, the northstar with its DOHC - I think would be an engineering bueaty to have in a Fiero. There was also a Vavoline sponsered '87 GT in roadracing for the '87 season that had a 4.5 liter, dry sump oiling system with 500hp. It's a drawing of the car is toward the back of "Pontiacs potent little sports car." I also remember seeing a Hot Rod issue - not sure how long ago, but is was a while, that had an article about a yellow Fiero that had a northstar 4.6 V-8.

TBK,

I used the Design One conversion kit. While it may add to your overall cost, everything is already figured out for you. It includes a modified wiring harness so the Cadillac ECM hooks into the Fiero wiring.

My only remaining problem is the the speedometer is off a bit because the ECM thinks I have different size tires.

Design One is in Oklahoma, so you may want to visit Kevin there.

Mike

Will, I located a Getrag from an Achieva SCX W-41, I'm using the gearset and LSD. I'm having gussets welded for strength near the bellhousing and the differential carrier.

This is what's called a "Bulldog Box" in the Ford Contour world. The engineer who headed up the CDW-27 powertrain development (Contour, Mystique, Cougar, Mondeo),Terry Haines lives near me. He's now retired and does things like this for Ford products. The lines you see are forcing lube through the bearings and spraying lube on the gears and synchros. The gusseting will be to limit case flex (this suprisingly is what usually destroys gears).

Why? you ask....I'm thinking I'll be at about 8.5:1 compression when I'm done if that's any indication.

quote Originally posted by Yellow87FieroGT: it sounds to me like a Corvette crate engine LS1 would do the job, and I would think it would be just as light if not lighter as the northstar becuase of the all aluminum block.

The LS1 probably is a tad lighter than the Northstar because of its smaller heads, but I don't see what the block has to do with it.

None as of yet, but the girdle idea isn't a bad one. If you had some prints for the Getrag in DWG or DXF format, I could place them where Terry and I were discussing.

No I don't. If I ever break one I'll probably find the motivation to put a case half on a CMM and come up with a print. Until then, since it's not broke, I'm not going to fix it.

quote Originally posted by Yellow87FieroGT: it sounds to me like a Corvette crate engine LS1 would do the job, and I would think it would be just as light if not lighter as the northstar becuase of the all aluminum block.

The LS1 is all aluminum because it HAS to be. The bottom end of that motor, with it's 6-bolt main girdle is enormous for a small block. And since the N* is all aluminum as well, my money would be on the N* being lighter.

Then there's also the issue of compatibility. No one makes a kit for the LS1 in a Fiero, so you'll have to fabricate an adapter plate and all mounts, etc. The N* has virtually the same bolt pattern as a Fiero and can bolt up to a Fiero tranny directly with some grinding for clearance and 1 bolt hole, I believe. From a physical mounting standpoint, the N* would be MUCH easier.

The Northstar is pretty large physically. I'm not sure how it compares in weight to the LS1 though.
http://caddyinfo.netgetgoing.com/howto/casehalf.htm

Gearbox concerns with a SBC?? My SBC (300 ponies & tons of torque) has been mated to the original Isuzu 5-speed gearbox since 1994 (yes, 9 years). The car has been driven hard, and the gearbox is fine.

Mind you, if you drive the bags out of anything on a constant and continual basis (especially if you like to burn rubber at the lights), you will eventually break something (V8 or no V8).

Now, if an Isuzu 5-speed can take some punishment (which is said not to be as beefy as the getrag), then what's your concern?

The 5-speed won't last as long with the V8 on it as it would have with the original 4 cylinder it had, but that's a given.

Personal preference, but I like simplicity. The SBC can be economical, and it's a fairly easy swap. Performance parts can be had anywhere. As for the weight concerns - with the power the chev can produce, you're not going to care what it weighs when you fly by those snobs in their BMWs. ;-) If you're really serious about track times, then I'd start to worry about weight. But for most of us who drive the V8 Fieros for the pure fun of it, I'm not concerned that I have a chunk of cast iron behind me as opposed to a chunk of aluminum.

It's all a matter of personal preference, really. Anyhow, just my 2 cents worth...

What about the ECM? Is there reprograming aadvice for bigger engines and other chips or do you just redo all the wiring?

If you want to use a factory ECM, Will and some others have done so with what I understand to be a good deal of success. Or you can go the aftermarket route. Your call.