Ok, well I'm looking around for a TPI unit right now so I can at least get that part of my V-8 project done during the summer time.

I plan on buying a ZZ4 crate engine to run it with, so here are some questions regarding this setup:

First off, can I use any TPI unit or do I need one that is from a speed density setup? My guess is that I can use any one, I just need the proper speed density sensors, a new wiring harness and a speed density ECM.

Next, which base do I need for the ZZ4 heads? Can I use an '85-'86 base with newer runners and upper plenum? I know if I use the 87-92 base that I would need to slot one of the holes for a bolt.

Finally, can the stock throttle bodies be bored out any? I am going to be porting the intake substantially and I was wondering if the stock TB's culd be bored out some to also help with the airflow.

And Archie, if you read this, how much does your video cost? And the purchase of the video is credited for when you buy your kit right?

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Contact TPIS (Tuned Port Injection Specialities), they are on the web. They have a book called insider secrets, it's all about modifing TPI setups. Its about 20 bucks, worth every penny.

Would you happen to have a direct link? If not that's ok, I will find it.

Thanks for the info on the book though. I have been looking around for books, but I haven't found anything I liked yet so I will go check that one out.

Either one of these two could likely be helpful (I've been looking into buying them myself)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1884089127/qid=1046882722/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-3285574-2560650
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/076030422X/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/103-3285574-2560650?v=glance&s=books

(You can buy 'em together for $27.24 +S&H)

Stay away from the 85 TPI setup if you want to convert the MAF to Speed Densiity It CANNOT be converted to speed density. check out the TPI section of this forum
http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/index.php?s=

Lots of great info and these guys know everything about TPI

I'm told that the TPI Intake won't match up to the ZZ4 heads. There is a intake available to mate the TPI setup onto those heads.

Here are some links that I used when i did my conversion.

Info on TPI systems

http://www.fuelinjection.com/portinj.html
http://www.fuelinjection.com/tpi.html
http://www.tunedport.com/ look for CHOOSE A TPI UNIT on the left bar

TPIS - Tuned Port injection Specialties http://www.tpis.com/

TPI to Vortec/ fastburn heads http://www.tunedport.com/throttlebody/tpimanifold.html

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 03-05-2003).]

quote Originally posted by voyagerspe: Stay away from the 85 TPI setup if you want to convert the MAF to Speed Densiity It CANNOT be converted to speed density. check out the TPI section of this forum http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/index.php?s= Lots of great info and these guys know everything about TPI

Why not? You should be able to convert it to the 7730 90-91 F/Y ECM and code. Maybe I'm missing something.

Thank you all for the information so far! Positive ratings for all!

Anyways, from what I have read so far, I am best off waiting for a 90+ full tpi setup to come around rather than piecing it all together. Or at least a full 90+ TPI manifold and fuel rail, then all I need is an ECM and distributor.

I will have to look into fitting the manifold to the ZZ4 heads. From what I know, the ZZ4 heads are set-up like the other pre-87 heads, so all I will have to do is slot the center hole on the intake manifold.

I also got my throttle body question answered. I really don't need to mod it any because I don't plan on running anything more than 375hp.

Now I gotta go and check on a particular corvette engine I was looking at....

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TPI will fit the ZZ4 heads. The ZZ4 uses Corvette (L98?) Aluminum heads. TPI doesn't fit the Fast Burn or Vortec heads since they are a diffent bolt and port pattern. Scoggin-Dickey Performance Parts sells a TPI base manifold that works with the Vortec and Fast Burn Heads.

Also, Archie refurbs and sells TPI setups, so he can probably get you anything you need. Also, I've seen him post elsewhere that his video is $50, and that is credited towards your V8 kit purchase.

I'm also considering a TPI ZZ4. I know with the SDPC Vortec base manifold and Vortec heads you get more power, but TPI is more tuned for low-mid range rpm and the Vortec heads come alive at higher rpms.

I've also seen conversions where people have put an LT1 intake on a TPI engine. This may be something to check out as it could help hi-rpm breathing. Ideally, I'd love a TPI Fast Burn 385, but I'm not sure if the extra expense if worth the 30HP over a ZZ4. I've got to be emissions compliant, so I can't run a carb.

I also thought about doing the Vortec setup. The 350 h.o. is cheaper than the ZZ4, but it has iron heads, and if I'm going to go V-8, I want to go with aluminum heads. The fast-burn heads are aluminum-vortec style, but that starts getting too expensive for me. My budget is going to be ~$8500. So the crate ZZ4 ($3500), Archie Kit (3000), TPI unit and all the other necessities ($600-$800) including harness. That leaves me about $700-$1200 for miscellaneous stuff.

TPI? I used to know something about TPI...(see my webpage) I'm also a moderator at thirdgen.org. Great site for TPI info. Now, if I were you, I would look at getting a stout short block, not necessarily the ZZ4. Then you can put your own heads on it, such as AFR or TrickFlow. I would also consider the LT1 intake swap that John Millican sells. If you're handy with tools, you can do it yourself, or buy one complete. The LT1 is a shorter intake, providing you with more space. It has short intake runners, providing you with 6000+ RPM redlines. And it's easier to work on, being one piece. After doing my conversion, I sold my TPI for a couple hundred, so systems are available cheap. Check the thirdgen classifieds, or Ebay. If you have any questions, let me know. As for the throttle body, there are several companies that bore them to 52mm. It might be easier to go with a new 52 or 58 right off the bat.

Here's John's site: http://www.lt1intake.com/

BTW, all my experience is prior to getting my Fiero, so the V8 is not in my current car.

[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 03-05-2003).]

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: TPI unit and all the other necessities ($600-$800) including harness. That leaves me about $700-$1200 for miscellaneous stuff.

You should be able to get the engine fairly cheap at a JY (thats what I did... Car gods were smiling down on me..)

I got my 85 TPI V8 (305) out of a Trans Am for ~$160 (ECM..everything)
and BTW 85 is the style where they still had just a prom...instead of the prom in a carrier... I like that setup cuz then it is possible to burn your own without buying an adapter..

Archies Video ROCKS!
(watch out its way better than ****...hehe I find myself watching it over and over again)

Cool to see someone else doing A TPI in the near future..

Good Luck

-Darius

RCR, that intake setup is quite interesting. The only thing that I'd be worried about is the remote T-stats housing. I don't know where I would put it.

Also, do you use an LT-1 throttle body with that setup, or the TPI throttle body?

And yes, 3rdgen.org has been great. I have been running through tons of information on that site. I have a better idea of what I need to be doing. Now I need to order Archies video...

Oh, I won't be doing this swap until next year, but I would like to have the vast majority of my planning done in the next couple of months. This way I can acquire everything I need, and know what I'll be in for before I even get started

ok, I'll ask my questions here too.

Can you use a MAF in a fiero on the TPI?

How tall is a TPI intake top to bottom?

How high is the top of the block, to the decklid?
Yes, I know the TPI fits. But I still wanna know.

I had about 5 questions, Guess I need to write 'em down.

RCR,
where is the classifieds on ThirdGen? I think I missed those. I've been looking a lot on there. Lots of good info.
TIA

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: First off, can I use any TPI unit or do I need one that is from a speed density setup? My guess is that I can use any one, I just need the proper speed density sensors, a new wiring harness and a speed density ECM. Next, which base do I need for the ZZ4 heads? Can I use an '85-'86 base with newer runners and upper plenum? I know if I use the 87-92 base that I would need to slot one of the holes for a bolt. Finally, can the stock throttle bodies be bored out any? I am going to be porting the intake substantially and I was wondering if the stock TB's culd be bored out some to also help with the airflow. And Archie, if you read this, how much does your video cost? And the purchase of the video is credited for when you buy your kit right?

Wow, you've been given a lot of info here already, most of it has been accurate.

Let me see if I can describe who I do TPI & what to buy and not to buy.

1st. off, I don't really sell TPI units as such, I rebuild them (that's my hobby ) ) & use them on customer and my own cars.

On a ZZ4 the heads are the earlier style as far as redrilling the center holes on the later TPI units, I don't like to do that. The only way to do that right is to also face off the area where the bolt head makes contact so that it's at a right angle to the hole in the head. Otherwise the intake bolts like to bend over as you tighten them down.

AFAIK, There is no reason you can't use the 85 unit for a MAP system. All of the MAP & MAF TPI systems can be used as a MAP system. I use an aftermarket wire harness from Painless or S&P & the correct MAP ECM as specified by the harness maker. That is how MAP & MAF are differentiated from each other in this application. Trust me, MAP is easier to use. You can use MAP for the ZZ4 but if you switch to the GM Hot Cam Kit, you may want to use MAF because no one makes a plug & play chip that has the mapping to make it work correctly in MAP. For MAP to work properly you need about 19 on intake manifold vacuum, hot cams typically run 10 to 14 & that's not enough to run MAP properly.

You have been provided links to several other TPI specialty shops and all of them can supply the same things as I get from Painless and S&P. The one thing I learned when buying a harness.... make sure to ask if their system actually goes into Closed Loop. Some systems stay in open loop all the time, that's not good...... it's going to get bad mileage and run rich all the time. An Open Loop system is no better than using an old swap meet carburator.

Another thing..... FUEL RAILS.... it's ok to get a 'Vette TPI intake if you want but try to get Camaro/FBird fuel rails. The fuel line connections on the Vette rails are in such a position that they interfere with the shock towers. Camaro/FBird rails are a natural for fuel line routing.

Ok, I think that covers what I can add to the info you've already gathered.

Archie

Thanks for the info Archie!

I have a quick question for you. I have found locally a '88 TPI 350 for sale. I have not got the cost yet, but if it is reasonable, I will probably buy it.

Now, from I what I read in your post, can I infer that you have done MassAirflow swaps? I was under the impression that it won't fit.

Assuming I can't use the mass airflow, I would be able to convert an '88TPI to Speed Density correct? I would need the proper ECM, and since you order harnesses, I would more than likely order the proper harness through you.

Anyways, I will probably call you next week to order the video after I gain some more information.

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http://www.thirdgen.org/classifieds/

I'm running a full MAF setup on my car, but the Speed Density is more elegant looking.
s/Chris

quote Originally posted by exspook: I'm running a full MAF setup on my car, but the Speed Density is more elegant looking. s/Chris

Do you have any pics??

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quote Originally posted by Archie: Wow, you've been given a lot of info here already, most of it has been accurate.

Like Archie said there is a lot of information to go through, and make a few decisions. Just thought I would give you something to look over.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20020208-2-014783.html
Maybe you can find some information in that thread.
Bob

The 1985 TPI unit is unique for that year stay away from it. Ideally you want the 1986 TPI unit because you don’t have to dill the intake manifold as it will fit the older heads as well as aftermarket aluminum heads that are designed for the older SBC. The MAF is better because it adjusts the fuel in proportion to the air that is coming into the intake. You can easily increase the flow of air through the MAF by removing the screens. This means that you can super charge or turbo charge if you use the MAF system with the factory wiring harness and computer. There are also many ECM chip choices and the equipment is available so you can program your own. However the problem when installing it in a Fiero is finding the space for the MAF sensor. A TPI intake system provides more torque at lower rpms, it can support up to 480 HP normally aspirated. It has many benefits because you can build a reliable engine that will outperform most newer technology at a fraction of the price, it is also a popular choice for hotrods because of the looks. I would suggest you read books on TPI systems and then make an engine choice.

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-07-2003).]

Your getting some good info here, but I just want to clear something up. No disrespect meant to anyone, but I think some of the info is misleading. A stock long tube runner TPI 350 will not support much more than 350hp at the crank. The LTR setup and 48mm TB will not flow enough air nor provide the RPM's to go higher. Now if you throw a MiniRam on it, it's a different story. Also, the MAF system is limited in how much air it can meter. Once the sensor reaches a max rating of 255, it can not go higher, and there is not a stock ECM made for the TPI & MAF that reads boost. There have been several people at the thirdgen EPROM board working on making it take boost, but I don't know if they have been successful. As for not being able to fit the MAF sensor, it's not that big. If you route a coldair intake, there should be room somewhere for the sensor.
Archie mentioned the LT4 Hot cam. Mine ran 17 -18" of vaccuum, FWIW. It's a good cam for the LTR, but it works better with a Miniram or LT1.

quote Also, do you use an LT-1 throttle body with that setup, or the TPI throttle body?

You would need the TPI throttle body for an LT1 swap. Also, the '88 setup is what i used in my Formula (Firebird). I converted to MAP by going to the Accel DFI. It cost a bit, but sure was fun to tinker with.

More than likely, I will just be going with a stock intake setup due to cost factors. But I would like to get power above 5k rpms...

I know that I will probably end up doing a huge porting job on it including siameseing the intake and runners as much as I can.

My biggest cost is probably going to be the AFR heads, it seems that they are the best out there. If I do the stock TPI setup, ported and siamesed, the AFR heads, and maybe the twin 52mm throttle body, do you think I could run the LT-4 hotcam? Or should I go with something more like the crane 2032 (I think that's what it is.)

Note: I am trying to keep this thread on the top. We have gained a ton of info on this thread already, so I want to keep it going, this way anyone looking for TPI info can have a bunch all in the same spot

A friend of mine has a great article on the AFR 195's on his site: http://www.ws6transam.org/fcar.html

I'm not up to par on the Crane 2032, but there is nothing wrong with the LT4 HC. I had a fully ported plenum and base with siamesed SLP runners. It was good for 5200 to 5600 RPM max.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: More than likely, I will just be going with a stock intake setup due to cost factors. But I would like to get power above 5k rpms...

It'll be a trick getting a stock TPI to do that. You may want to go with heads with smaller intake ports to match the cross section of the TPI runners and keep port velocity high through the whole length of the runner.

Alternatively, instead of buying AFR heads, buy a set of Vortec or Fast Burn heads and put the money you saved on heads toward the Vortec TPI manifold base.

quote Originally posted by RCR: A stock long tube runner TPI 350 will not support much more than 350hp at the crank. The LTR setup and 48mm TB will not flow enough air nor provide the RPM's to go higher.

Engine: 383 sbc stock tpi intake with mild porting
Brodix heads. 2.02 intake, 1.60 exhaust.
68 cc combustion chambers. Manley pistons(part No 49453), 5.7" connecting rods. 1 & 3/4" diameter headers. Competition Cams special hydraulic roller: Advertised duration 280/286. Duration at .50-in lift
224/230. Lift .525/.560".
Maximum Horsepower 431@5500rpm. Maximum Torque 452@4000rpm.

quote Originally posted by RCR: Also, the MAF system is limited in how much air it can meter. Once the sensor reaches a max rating of 255, it can not go higher, and there is not a stock ECM made for the TPI & MAF that reads boost.

In order to supercharge a tpi system you will need the ecm from a GMC TYPHOON. By removing the screens from the MAF sensor you will be able to increase and handle the added air flow as the BOSH MAF sensor is designed to flow and meter 891 cfm. However it will need the Typhoon ECM to accomplish this as that ECM will provide a higher voltage to the MAF sensor burn wire to compensate for the higher boost.

I also suggest a 4T60 transmission as it is designed to hold more torque and horsepower than the 125 or getrag. You will break traction before you break anything else unless you "hop" the car and transfer more weight to the rear.

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-10-2003).]

While we are on the subject of TPI's, I have a dumb question.....

I just found an 86 305 TPI w/ a cracked piston. Will the 305 TPI fit on a 350?

Yes a 305 TPI unit and a 350 TPI unit are identical for the respective years manufactured 85 are all the same , 86 are all the same and so forth). Except for the injectors (the 350 uses injectors that flow more gas) and the position of the fuel hoses. I have found that the best injectors to use with a TPI unit are Bosh rotary disk injectors like the ones used in the Mustang Cobra and yes they are a direct fit. These injectors will actually give you a boost in horsepower and economy.

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-11-2003).]

LOL.....get these........

Phil

------------------
87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd
0-60 in 6.8 seconds!

I stand corrected, although a built 383 is not a stock TPI 350 and the Typhoon ECM was not used on a TPI engine, stock. Good numbers on the 383, what size TB?

The 350 is capable of the same numbers if it is built correctly, I only used the 383 because I had all the parts. The TB is from a 91 350(tpi). Lingerfelter used to make an oval TB that is the best way for the tpi to breathe, it will sometimes show up for sale on eBay . I am now working on an all aluminum SBC that will use this intake:

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-11-2003).]

Chief,

You are doing my dream engine! I would love to have an all aluminum SBC! As for that intake, where did you get it from? Price, flow numbers?? That thing will be a beast!

I bought three on ebay for an average of $1280 each. The intake set up is one of several prototypes built by Lingerfelter, notice it is set up for nitrous. Each runner is tuned equally and flows 203 cfm . The intake is machined for use with the NASCAR 24502560 aluminum heads. I am using titanium valves the intakes are 2.15" and exhaust valves 1.625" with valve length of 5.55" and valve seat intake 2.20" x .312" and exhaust 1.67" x .275". A full roller rocker set up custom spec cam and steel crank with aluminum connecting rods and CNC cut pistons. It is 454 cubic inches AND designed to run on 92 octane. No I am NOT putting it in my Fiero!

[This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-11-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Chief: No I am NOT putting it in my Fiero!

LOL. I was sitting here reading that description of the engine thinking to myself, "He can't possibly be thinking of putting that in a Fiero, can he?"

That engine would look good in a first gen Camaro.

Hartz

*bumping* for a question of my own...

I am going to pick up my '89 TPI 350 in about two weeks. It will be complete with all accessories, wiring harness, & computer.

From what I'm reading above, a Speed Density setup is preferred- would it be worth my time & money to buy and upgrade it to a Speed Density system? And if so, what all is necessary (sensors, ECM, etc?).

I'm not looking at building the engine to max out power, but I am planning on installing a stroker kit & doing some basic performance upgrades (port & polish, etc)- along with just a good clean rebuild. TIA!

For anyone considering a ZZ4 or other hi performance SBC, check out either TPIS' Mini Ram intake or Holley's Stealth Ram intake. Both are more similar to the LT1 style short runner intake than the long tube TPI intake and should help upper rpm breathing tremendously compared to a regular TPI setup.

quote Originally posted by Chief: [QUOTE]Originally posted by RCR: Also, the MAF system is limited in how much air it can meter. Once the sensor reaches a max rating of 255, it can not go higher, and there is not a stock ECM made for the TPI & MAF that reads boost.[QUOTE] In order to supercharge a tpi system you will need the ecm from a GMC TYPHOON. By removing the screens from the MAF sensor you will be able to increase and handle the added air flow as the BOSH MAF sensor is designed to flow and meter 891 cfm. However it will need the Typhoon ECM to accomplish this as that ECM will provide a higher voltage to the MAF sensor burn wire to compensate for the higher boost. [This message has been edited by Chief (edited 03-10-2003).]

Ok, Now there is some misinformation here. First off the 749 Sy/Ty ECM doesn't even use a MAF. If you want to convert from TPI you have to convert to the 730 {speed density) first then go to the 749. You also don't NEED the 749 to boost TPI, there are other ways, the 749 is one of them. Also about the 255 grams/sec MAF limit. Voltage has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is very simple, all thridgen camaro computers come with an 8-bit ECU, the highest number possible in 8-bit binary is 255, there you go. A 16-bit ECM would solve the problem however this is not what the 749 does since its speed density as mentioned above. Also, the topic of removing the MAF screens has been debated endlessly on thirdgen.org and the only thing that has been proven about it is that no one has proven it does anything. Now Minngreen, to answer your quesiton. It really depends how much power you want. Some people have found that the 255 limit on the MAF is good for about 400hp after that the ECM has to guess (which isn't great). MAF is more forgiving of modifications without the proper editing in the PROM. Speed Density will support more hp but you will have to burn a chip if you make a major modification. There's a readon GM went back to MAF in 1994 for the F-bodies. It's better when it doesn't max out at 255 (4th gens have a 16-bit computer). I hope this helps

[This message has been edited by FieroGTT (edited 03-27-2003).]

quote Originally posted by FieroGTT: Now Minngreen, to answer your quesiton. It really depends how much power you want. Some people have found that the 255 limit on the MAF is good for about 400hp after that the ECM has to guess (which isn't great). MAF is more forgiving of modifications without the proper editing in the PROM. Speed Density will support more hp but you will have to burn a chip if you make a major modification. There's a readon GM went back to MAF in 1994 for the F-bodies. It's better when it doesn't max out at 255 (4th gens have a 16-bit computer). I hope this helps

Thanks, that helps. I was unsure of where the HP cutoff was when looking at the MAF setup- I'm pretty sure I can work with the 400hp range