First off, Would it be easier to bolt up to a 1986 Fiero? A SBC350, Northstar, or 3.8L SUPERCHARGED V6. What would you guys recomend? Which one would be easier and (or) cheeper to install? I have heard the 3800's bolt up VERY easiely. Also, What transmission to use? We can get a stock tranny for the 3800 easiely. Would that work or should we bolt it up to his STOCK 5 speed? I have heard about Porsche tranny's too, Which one does he need? Any advice is appreciated! -Paul
------------------ I own a Fieroghini.... NO BULL! CHECK THIS OUT!!!! (short video)www.exoticcarsgonewild.com
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03:23 PM
PFF
System Bot
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Both the 3800SC and the Northstar will bolt up to the fiero trani. You also have the option of using the northstar transmission which is stronger than the fiero but heavier.
A SBC will need a V-8 Archie kit to install.
The easiest swap of the bunch would probibly be a SBC because Archie sends out a video detailing the entire swap.
there has been a ton of discussion on Fiero engine sways, try checking the search part of this forum. Forget what ever you heard about a porsche trany. The Northstar and the 3800 will bolt up to the Fiero transaxle. The Chevy V8 requires an adapter plate. The mating of the engine to the trans is the least of your project. Getting all the wires to work through different ECMs is do-able, but for those with a great knowledge of ECMs or a ready and willing sourse of help. V8 Archie has the best instructions for a Chevy V8. There are a couple people that'll help with a Cadillac 4.9 V8. A Northstar swap can be hired done, plan a few grand for this project. Study up and get back with us.
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04:28 PM
jelly2m8 Member
Posts: 6261 From: Nova Scotia, Canada Registered: Jul 2001
Well, the N* doesn't bolt to the Fiero transaxle without some mods. You have to grind some of the webbing in the bellhousing away for clearance of the N*'s starter. A 3800SC will bolt directly to the Fiero tranny, and a SBC will require a kit from V8 Archie. Probably the simplest would be the 3800SC, with the SBC next, and the Northstar being the most difficult.
ya ya - go with V-8 - Northstar DOHC V-8 that is! then if the itch for more power comes along, slap some boost on it. the 3800SC is already close to its limit, so its tough to get any more. the N* has a long way to go before it hits the HP wall. and the Revs. vrrooooom
the 3800SC is already close to its limit, so its tough to get any more.
Well, I think FieroX has proved that's not the case. He's running 11's with his 3800SC, so apparently the stock 240HP isn't close to the limit of that engine. Don't know how long his will hold up, though, but it's everyday driveable and still gets good mileage.
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11:02 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Well, I think FieroX has proved that's not the case. He's running 11's with his 3800SC, so apparently the stock 240HP isn't close to the limit of that engine. Don't know how long his will hold up, though, but it's everyday driveable and still gets good mileage.
so he got what, maybe 60 more HP? I'm sure you can get much more out of a N*. It's allowed to be be supercharged or turbo charged also. with a higher redline. anything you can do to a 3.8, you can do to a 4.9, and get more out of it. just picture what a Turbocharged DOHC aluminum block 4.9L V-8 will do in a 1/4 mile. but I know thats alot of work, and parts arnt as available
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11:11 AM
Sootah Member
Posts: 2457 From: St. George, Utah Registered: May 2001
the 3800 II supercharged is VERY capable of putting out 350 hp. You will probably find that power is not as much an issue as the strength of the tranny. If you go with the stick shift from the Fiero (hm-282) I have heard that it will support up to like 400 ft lbs. The nice thing about the 3800 II is size/weight. The 3800 II is obvoiusly closer to the weight of the original 2.8, so if you care at all about keeping the weight close to stock, and handling, thats the way to go. If you go with the northstar you will be a little heavier, and it will take up more room in the engine bay. I have heard of someone adding a turbo to the Northstar so there has to still be a little room. It's just preferance, but I would go 3800 II, and would not stop with the mods until I hit 350 hp.
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12:52 PM
intlcutlass Member
Posts: 1431 From: Cleveland,Oh.44067 Registered: Nov 2002
I would REALLY recommend searching the archives. There are hundreds of engine swap threads. Just about everything that can be said has been.
As far as any engine swap being VERY easy, the people on this forum are very experienced, and sometimes they make it look too easy ... I really can't think of a place I'd rather come to for advice about any auto problem...
Last, but not least, it's you(or your friend) who makes the decision. We can guide you on it, but you should obviously do what you think you like the best.
so he got what, maybe 60 more HP? I'm sure you can get much more out of a N*. It's allowed to be be supercharged or turbo charged also. with a higher redline. anything you can do to a 3.8, you can do to a 4.9, and get more out of it. just picture what a Turbocharged DOHC aluminum block 4.9L V-8 will do in a 1/4 mile. but I know thats alot of work, and parts arnt as available
Oh god, get your facts even close to straight man... for starters its gonna take a HELL of a lot more than 60hp to take a car/motor from high 13's to mid 11's Id say closer to 160hp, secondly fieroX has dyno charts showing something like 307Wheel hp. So right there thats like 130hp over stock, secondly ive heard of 3800SC dynoed at OVER 400 WHEEL hp... so dont try and believe that there isnt power to be found in those engines...
Fact #2 that is off the caddy 4.9 is an aluminum block iron head pushrod motor making like 200hp and cant rev to save its life. The northstar on the other hand is a 4.6L motor, i know minor difference... For the northstar making power isnt as easy as you think sure you can cam it up to make 460ish hp at 9000RPM but then you have basically a race motor with much less streetable potential than a 3800SC that makes MORE power...
Ok so run those cams play with the pistons and run 15psi of boost at 9000 rpm and get say 700-800hp woohoo now your making more power huve no gas mileage and no streetability, and is a crappy dragrace motor... But you do have an extremly expensive roadcourse motor that is WAY overpowered for what the fiero chassis could ever hope to handle...
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02:31 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5548 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
A northstar is an awesome motor. Because of A low hoodline of a cadi, the intake must be low. This causes quite a bit of restriction. With no other work than a sheetmetal intake manifold and 4 barrel throttle body will turn about 400 BHP AND idle like an electric motor. Bad side is that it costs a fortune for this stuff. Check out the Nov Issue of Hemmings Rods and Performance. It has a great article on the N*. It even mentions them putting these in fieros.
A SC3800 is a great motor too. But its fairly complex if you dont know how to do a wiring harness. But still puts out some good HP/TQ numbers
A SBC will be the simplest. Aftermarket parts are cheap and everywhere. Engines are cheap and everywhere. Over 40 years of advancements. If you want FI or a carb its easy. But this will probably cost a little more than a SC3800. A 500 HP small block is nothing new.
Oh god, get your facts even close to straight man... for starters its gonna take a HELL of a lot more than 60hp to take a car/motor from high 13's to mid 11's Id say closer to 160hp, secondly fieroX has dyno charts showing something like 307Wheel hp. So right there thats like 130hp over stock, secondly ive heard of 3800SC dynoed at OVER 400 WHEEL hp... so dont try and believe that there isnt power to be found in those engines...
Fact #2 that is off the caddy 4.9 is an aluminum block iron head pushrod motor making like 200hp and cant rev to save its life. The northstar on the other hand is a 4.6L motor, i know minor difference... For the northstar making power isnt as easy as you think sure you can cam it up to make 460ish hp at 9000RPM but then you have basically a race motor with much less streetable potential than a 3800SC that makes MORE power...
Ok so run those cams play with the pistons and run 15psi of boost at 9000 rpm and get say 700-800hp woohoo now your making more power huve no gas mileage and no streetability, and is a crappy dragrace motor... But you do have an extremly expensive roadcourse motor that is WAY overpowered for what the fiero chassis could ever hope to handle...
You corrected him on everything except he was right about the change in HP, 307 from 240 is about 60hp.
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10:38 PM
87FieroGTx Member
Posts: 2630 From: Bath, New York, USA Registered: Jun 2001
Hey, I'd vote as I always do......3800SC! Great engine......lasts forever.......great power....pretty easy swap......plus I like having a 6 cyl that kicks ass. When someone asks what you got, you say....it's just a 6 cyl..........LOL.
I'm gonna put a late model non SC in mine cause they're so plentiful and cheap and 205 HP ain't bad!
Phil
------------------ GTDude OVER 25 years GM experience
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12:11 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
I am still not sold on the V8 SBC swap yet. Every one I have seen to date, with the exception of a scant few, just didn't look that impressive. But, this is my opinion and what you want in your car is your preference and not mine.
Personally, I think the ONLY way to go is 3800 Series II SC. The aftermarket for these engines is exploding and prices are beginning to come down. This "little" engine has a rich history with ancestors rooted in the buick grand national and I just don't think that there is any limit to what you can do with one of these engines.
On top of that, unlike the N* and SBC, there is no bellhousing to cut, no adapters to buy or make, no frame or body notching and the gas mileage of the 3800 series II is unbeatable. So to sum all this up in a nutshell:
SBC: Mods, Mods, and more Mods needed just to make it work in your fiero. Power? Sure, but durability of the tranny will probably be an issue if you really start pushing some serious power. Besides, unless it has TPI, is an LT1 or LS1, just doesn't look impressive to me. I have seen many carbed V8 engines in fieros. They all look the same -- boring. Please do something different than a carb if you have to do a SBC.
N*: Good power (probably more than the typical SBC), no mid-plate required but still a lot of work to get in there. Seen "northstar"'s blue fiero dyno at about 250HP and 250TQ at the wheels. Probably good enough to get that relatively heavy setup well into the 13's in the 1/4. However, gas mileage isn't that great, but probably better than a carbed SBC. Oh yea, a big negative: NO AFTERMARKET AVAILABLE. I am curious as to how much it would cost just to rebuild one of these back to stock, let alone any upgrades to handle boost or NOS.
3800 II SC: I might be a little bias here, but mine won't have an SC anyway. Turbocharging is the only way to go in my opinion. Installation is argueably easier than putting a stock fiero 2.8 back in there. Besides, you are looking at 240HP and 280ft/lbs TQ bone stock. Ligher than a SBC and N*, and you can use a lot of factory available mounts and parts which means you won't be a slave to any one particular supplier. Of coarse, if you are not electically inclined, wiring will be an issue; likewise with the N* and EFI on a SBC. Durability of the trans might also be an issue here but a 4T80-E can be made to work here also. But, unlike the N* and SBC the 3800 II SC leaves pleanty of ROOM TO WORK ON IT!
As I said before, this is just my opinion and as always, no flames intended.
------------------ 1987 Pontiac Fiero Coupe #18,838 3800 Series II SFI; 4T60-E Trans w/ 3.33 final drive; Terminator exhaust; 4 wheel vented disc conversion; Walbro 307 fuel pump; W-body air box w/ K&N filter; Rear 32mm sway bar; 134a functioning A/C; GM CD player w/ factory location sub; much more and...a stock GN's TURBO on the way!
Wow, how did I miss this thread? Let me clear a few things up. A couple months back when my car was untuned and had some unknown problems, I dynoed 301 wheel hp and 351 wheel torque. Thats about 370 crank hp, and 425 crank torque. A stock L67 puts out 240 hp and 280 torque, at the crank. That equates to about 205 wheel hp, and 240 wheel torque. At that point in time I ran a best of 12.004 @ 111.776 mph. So last month I drove to Canada. I found out about my wiring problems and everything was corrected. I had 3 minor problems that added up to one large one, I wasnt getting the timing advance I should of. This was holding me back by about 32 horsepower (at the wheels, figure 4 wheel hp per degree of added timing without knock). My knock sensor wasnt hooked up right, neither was my coolant temp sensor, nor my air intake temp sensor. This all added up to about 10 degrees of timing taken away, but after it was all fixed we had to knock a few degrees of timing off the top, because I got a little detonation. So, now I get it all tuned and back to Kansas, and the first time out to the track I run an 11.633 at 115.927 mph. I havent had the chance to dyno it again yet, but I expect to see about 335 wheel hp and 390 wheel tq. Thats about 400 hp and 460 tq at the crank. Not too bad for a little ol V6 that still gets 30 mpg on the highway
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03:44 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: N*: Good power (probably more than the typical SBC), no mid-plate required but still a lot of work to get in there. Seen "northstar"'s blue fiero dyno at about 250HP and 250TQ at the wheels. Probably good enough to get that relatively heavy setup well into the 13's in the 1/4. However, gas mileage isn't that great, but probably better than a carbed SBC. Oh yea, a big negative: NO AFTERMARKET AVAILABLE. I am curious as to how much it would cost just to rebuild one of these back to stock, let alone any upgrades to handle boost or NOS.
Ligher than a SBC and N*,
Durability of the trans might also be an issue here but a 4T80-E can be made to work here also. But, unlike the N* and SBC the 3800 II SC leaves pleanty of ROOM TO WORK ON IT!
Opinion or not, you're wrong!
My Northstar dynoed 254 HP and 267 TQ with a ratty mangled exhaust and the wrong timing tables in the chip. There's probably about 30 more HP available with a good exhaust and fully optimized program. When I get bored with that, I can change to a heads & cams package from www.chrfab.com a carbon clutch from www.quartermasterusa.com either hack the stock chip or go to a stand alone and have 350-380 HP at the wheels.
The Northstar is marginally heavier than a 2.8. I REALLY doubt it's heavier than a 3800SC (don't forget that supercharger weighs 50lbs or more and is on top of a large all iron V6. Don't forget that the transmission choice has a large impact on driveline weight also. With my Getrag, I have a 150-200 lbs weight advantage on a 3800 SC with 4T65EHD.
The Northstar IS hard to work on. I recently had to have my alternator rebuilt, and had to drop the cradle 6 inches to get it out. But does a 90 degree V8 (SBC) really take up that much more room than a 90 degree V6 (3800)?
If you think the 4T80E is the best transmission option for the 3800, maybe you should do some more research.
I'm not saying the Northstar's the best, I'm just correcting misinformation.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-11-2002).]
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09:17 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5922 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
My Northstar dynoed 254 HP and 267 TQ with a ratty mangled exhaust and the wrong timing tables in the chip. There's probably about 30 more HP available with a good exhaust and fully optimized program. When I get bored with that, I can change to a heads & cams package from www.chrfab.com a carbon clutch from www.quartermasterusa.com either hack the stock chip or go to a stand alone and have 350-380 HP at the wheels.
The Northstar is marginally heavier than a 2.8. I REALLY doubt it's heavier than a 3800SC (don't forget that supercharger weighs 50lbs or more and is on top of a large all iron V6. Don't forget that the transmission choice has a large impact on driveline weight also. With my Getrag, I have a 150-200 lbs weight advantage on a 3800 SC with 4T65EHD.
The Northstar IS hard to work on. I recently had to have my alternator rebuilt, and had to drop the cradle 6 inches to get it out. But does a 90 degree V8 (SBC) really take up that much more room than a 90 degree V6 (3800)?
If you think the 4T80E is the best transmission option for the 3800, maybe you should do some more research.
I'm not saying the Northstar's the best, I'm just correcting misinformation.
Wrong about what exactly?
I said his N* dynoed at about 250HP/250TQ at the wheels. I do not remember the exact figures, but I was there.
N* cams are $120 each with your core turned in and springs are $150 with retainers being $150. So far, you are looking at $780 for just the valvetrain. The 3800 II cams (which there are 5 different available in which one will certainly meet your needs) for about $299 (mfd by COMP). Springs and retainers for the cams I just mentioned only run $171. So far that is only $470.
Heads for the N* -- all ported and valve job performed you are looking at $2500!!! Head work for the 3800 II will only set you back $869. On top of that, you could also port these yourself and they are not too complicated to take to your local machine shop.
Ok, so maybe my first statement of NO AFTERMARKET AVAILABLE wasn't completely accurate. I should have realized that someone would come up with a place that could "specially" make things for the N*. Fact of the matter is, Comp Cams makes the cams for the 3800 II. Sounds like your stock N* ones have to be reground.
User programming is available for the 95 3800 SC PCM that could be made to work with a series II. Check out www.tunercat.com There are many rumors that are pointing to a host of OBDII progs being available next year which will most certianly address the 3800 II SC and N*. Stand alone systems are nice, but expensive and as I said before, you are a slave to one particular supplier and if you fry the ecm you just can't go to a junkyard and get another.
As far as the weight issue is concerned, I think you might be wrong. According to the information I have available, the northstar weighs in at about 400 lbs bare and about 470 lbs will all assy's. The 3800 II SC weighs in at about 450 lbs with all assy's based on the information I have. So they are pretty much the same weight.
As far as automatics go:
4T80-E: 293.21 lbs wet. 4T60-E: 203.96 lbs wet. (don't have exact figures on 4T65-E but I estimate difference of maybe 20lbs) Info straight from GM.
Yes a SBC does take up more room than an L67 or L36. For one thing, the 3800 II is not is long, it is also not as tall or wide because it has a relatively short deck height.
What trans option do you suggest being the best for the 3800? Please don't tell me that the stock getrag will hold up to anything I want put to it. I had many people tell me that months ago and not one of them has the time slips or proof of long term durability to back it up. I have, however, seen a 4T60 take the abuse of a 383 and NOS well enough to pull the front wheels off the ground.
So what misinformation did you correct? I am not trying to be a jerk but don't correct misinformation with misinformation; it confuses people.
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02:14 PM
intlcutlass Member
Posts: 1431 From: Cleveland,Oh.44067 Registered: Nov 2002
I agree with "Darth". Also just to point out....the L67 has cross-bolted (4-bolt) caps. I don't know if the Northstar has that or not. But thats important to those who know about it.
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02:24 PM
Neal Member
Posts: 1247 From: Calgary AB, Canada Registered: Jun 2001
I agree with "Darth". Also just to point out....the L67 has cross-bolted (4-bolt) caps. I don't know if the Northstar has that or not. But thats important to those who know about it.
Will can fill you in on the specifics, or do a search but the N* has a bottom end girdle holding everything together... WAY better than 4 or even 6 bolt mains...
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06:27 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I said his N* dynoed at about 250HP/250TQ at the wheels. I do not remember the exact figures, but I was there.
N* cams are $120 each with your core turned in and springs are $150 with retainers being $150. So far, you are looking at $780 for just the valvetrain. The 3800 II cams (which there are 5 different available in which one will certainly meet your needs) for about $299 (mfd by COMP). Springs and retainers for the cams I just mentioned only run $171. So far that is only $470.
Heads for the N* -- all ported and valve job performed you are looking at $2500!!! Head work for the 3800 II will only set you back $869. On top of that, you could also port these yourself and they are not too complicated to take to your local machine shop.
My point with the dyno comment was that at least with a manual, there's plenty left at 250/250. The automatic is another story, but I've never heard of an auto N* Fiero that was running at 100%.
N* regrinds are competitively priced, per cam compared to SBC regrinds, it's just that there are four of them. $2500 gets you a heads and cams package.
So a comparable package for the 3800, would include ported heads, cam & lifters, pushrods, rocker arms, and springs and keepers. Difference isn't so big now is it? The N* also has two more of each kind of port to work on, so the difference is smaller on a port-to-port basis
12 springs and retainers for the N* would be less than the 12 you get with a kit for the 3800. You've got to consider how much you're getting for the money you spend.
Now compare the $2500 for a Northstar heads and cams package to the price of a heads and cam package for an LS1, and you'll see that it's not expensive to mod, comparatively.
Until MY2K, the N* used flat tappet lifters which require cast grey iron cams. Blanks are hard to make, especially in the face of limited demand. The 3800 SC uses a steel roller cam and blanks can be cut from billet by any CNC machine shop.
What do you want to do with your car? Maybe the auto is for you, but it's not for me.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-14-2002).]
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07:52 PM
Dec 13th, 2002
Blade_69 Member
Posts: 394 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Jul 2002
I don't know about you. But my pockets aren't that deep. I'm probably going to go with the 3800SC Series II, auto, maybe smaller pulley. I want something I can drive every day, and still have enough power to surprise a few unsuspecting Mustangs and rice burners. The occasional street race is fine for me. Now if by chance I come into some money, I'm going straight to for the LS1, Z06, 405hp engine. Just get what YOU want.
Well can i bring this back to life??? I've been doing my research and I need help on my decision. Imgoing for more power...mainly lower end torque. The 3.8s/c be best for that? Is the Getrag 282 or 284 compatable with the s/c engine?
If you are looking for lower end toque. Then I think a V8 would be a better choice. Yes both those getrags are compatible with the 3.8. The 284 is supposed to be the stronger of the two. The 282 is what came in 87 and 88 GT's and formulas mainly. Some 86's had them too. I will add that I believe there are some ECM issues with the 3800 series II SC and a manual trans, but I will let the 3800 answer that.
I'm planning a Northstar swap this summer. I'll probably be using a Link engine management system and a Getrag 282. My daily driver is a V-8 SHO...love small, high revving, DOHC V-8's. The 3800 S/C is cool as well, albeit pushrod. Personally, I don't think a SBC has any place in a transverse engine car. Just my $0.02.
I think a lot of it depends on how much money you have to spend, what kind of pollution laws you have to deal with, and what you want the car to do.
The big advantage of the SBC, is that you can -really- get a lot of power out of an SBC, and with the right work easily make them turn very high RPMs. Of course that all does cost a lot of money, which some of us don't want to spend :-)
Myself, I'd rather have the 4.9L instead of the 3.4L I have, -however- I live in Cal and I was not looking forward to trying to get the 4.9 legally smogged here (As I understand it, if the car never came with the engine you want to put in it, you can't. Which means that you can't get a V8 in a car here easily, if at all legally).
Anyway, if we all did the exact same thing, wouldn't it be boring here? (though it might make Archie rich :-) ).
He's running 11's with his 3800SC, so apparently the stock 240HP isn't close to the limit of that engine. Don't know how long his will hold up, though, but it's everyday driveable and still gets good mileage.
