Who here thinks they could fit a V12 caddie N* in a fiero? and put it in the same position as the old engine? Is it possible? Or would you be insane to try something like this? What about a Dodge Viper V10 in a fiero? My dad's friend wants to try to get a V-12 N* when they go into production and put it into is low mileage (9,000 mile) 1988 Fastback. Anybody wanna try when the engine comes out, or what about a Viper engine...
------------------ Silver 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT _____________________ Want a free P4, 1.5GHZ laptop, go here:
http://www.yourfreelaptop.com Here's another free laptop site, this one is 2.2GHZ!
The Caddy V12 might fit. It isn't supposed to be any bigger than a V8 externally. The Viper engine is too long to fit in the engine bay unless you turn it 90 degrees and get rid of the trunk.
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08:44 PM
GTDude Member
Posts: 9056 From: Keysville, Virginia, USA Registered: Nov 2001
That would be odd, a V10 Venom 800 motor mounted to a beefed up porsche transaxle of some sort. Deep pockets I think could make this a good project. I think its entirely possibly but heavy mods especially in the rear suspension and maybe a frame stretch. It would make a MEAN kit car.
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10:42 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15761 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Well, if you go with that question. What is the point of turbocharging a stock engine? What is the point of engine swaps? What is the point of kits? What is the point of modifications?
Because we can, and because it's a good challenge.
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11:01 PM
I'm Back Member
Posts: 3780 From: Phoenix, Az, USA Registered: Oct 2002
Well, if you go with that question. What is the point of turbocharging a stock engine? What is the point of engine swaps? What is the point of kits? What is the point of modifications?
Because we can, and because it's a good challenge.
Amen. If it's neccessary to ask, then don't.
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11:08 PM
Nov 24th, 2002
GTDude Member
Posts: 9056 From: Keysville, Virginia, USA Registered: Nov 2001
With the expertise/help/insanity/testosterone rush that this forum has, I will bet a 1988 GT that someone will put the v-12 in a Fiero sooner or later.
With the expertise/help/insanity/testosterone rush that this forum has, I will bet a 1988 GT that someone will put the v-12 in a Fiero sooner or later.
To make the car faster. I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out.
Logic will dictate that you don't need a V12 or a Blown Chrysler Hemi to go faster in a Fiero. WE've already got guys running V8's and hopped up V6's that run in the 11's and these engines fit. If you figure a way to get that V12 engine into a Fiero, I'll find someone who will blow you away with a V6 or V8. Why? The Cadillac/Oldsmobile Northstar engine family is next to impossible to modify. Spending $1000's to put a V12 in a Fiero to end up with a conversation piece? Let's get realistic and stop dreaming.
My dad said that if his friend could get a hold of one of those Caddie engines right now, he would do it either way... 700 HP V-12 in a fiero, yikes...
------------------ Silver 1985 Pontiac Fiero GT _____________________ Want a free P4, 1.5GHZ laptop, go here:
http://www.yourfreelaptop.com Here's another free laptop site, this one is 2.2GHZ!
Why is it impossible to modify? companies offer a centrifugal blower, turbos, cams, pistons, throttle bodies, you name it, it's available. Granted, not cheap, but it's available.
I'm using the Northstar because I like the DOHC V-8 design. In 10 years or so when some of the v-12's are around, I may do it with that to.
This is a hobby Dennis. You don't have to justify it, you just have to enjoy doing it.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Logic will dictate that you don't need a V12 or a Blown Chrysler Hemi to go faster in a Fiero. WE've already got guys running V8's and hopped up V6's that run in the 11's and these engines fit. If you figure a way to get that V12 engine into a Fiero, I'll find someone who will blow you away with a V6 or V8. Why? The Cadillac/Oldsmobile Northstar engine family is next to impossible to modify. Spending $1000's to put a V12 in a Fiero to end up with a conversation piece? Let's get realistic and stop dreaming.
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01:08 PM
Ambush Member
Posts: 546 From: San Francisco, Ca USA Registered: Aug 2001
Logic will dictate that you don't need a V12 or a Blown Chrysler Hemi to go faster in a Fiero. WE've already got guys running V8's and hopped up V6's that run in the 11's and these engines fit. If you figure a way to get that V12 engine into a Fiero, I'll find someone who will blow you away with a V6 or V8. Why? The Cadillac/Oldsmobile Northstar engine family is next to impossible to modify. Spending $1000's to put a V12 in a Fiero to end up with a conversation piece? Let's get realistic and stop dreaming.
No one said that you NEED a V12 to go faster, but that would still be one point of putting a V12 in a fiero. I didn't say there weren't more cost effective or even just plain better options. But there are other reasons to do it too. It would be original and really cool and you'd probably get some pretty reliable horsepower out of it. Especially if someone's not low on dough and they wanna do something sweet and original. But you didn't say, "I think there are more effective options and the cons outway the pros" which is really for the person who is doing it to decide. Instead you said, "What's the point?", which is very general, I told you one of many points of doing it. You don't need a V8 to go faster, so should we then say, "what's the point of putting in a V8?" We don't need a V6 to go faster, but does THAT mean there's no point? No, you asked what the point was, and it's pretty obvious some reasons why people would want to do it. That doesn't mean there aren't drawbacks. But instead of just shooting down every idea that anyone has, you could voice your opinion by saying what drawbacks there are about it AS WELL as saying what benefits there are, and letting people decide for themselves. Instead you are totally negative about everyone's ideas. Some people like to have unique cars, some people like to think outside the box. It's good to have people on this forum who are realistic and can bring people, who aren't so much that way, back to reality, but maybe people here would respect you more if you did it in a kinder more open-minded way.
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01:28 PM
I'm Back Member
Posts: 3780 From: Phoenix, Az, USA Registered: Oct 2002
Logic will dictate that you don't need a V12 or a Blown Chrysler Hemi to go faster in a Fiero. WE've already got guys running V8's and hopped up V6's that run in the 11's and these engines fit. If you figure a way to get that V12 engine into a Fiero, I'll find someone who will blow you away with a V6 or V8. Why? The Cadillac/Oldsmobile Northstar engine family is next to impossible to modify. Spending $1000's to put a V12 in a Fiero to end up with a conversation piece? Let's get realistic and stop dreaming.
Sure, but the V6s and V8s that will beat a stock N* V-12 will be so well built and extremely expensive, and probably running 8k+ rpm, that they would be less streetable. Besides, what transmission are you going to install to hold that kind of power? The V-12 N* will obviously come with a tranny that will hold its 5-600HP, but what other tranny will you muster that will be transverse and fit/work in a Fiero? Also, was the N* considered dificult to modify when it first came out? Ya, it's a bit of a novelty, as a V8 N* would be more practical, but what a conversation piece! You could install 4 turbos on a 2.8, take it to a car show, and have people checking it out all day. But pull up a V12 N* and watch the spectators run to look at it. I think it's great that American auto makers are finally pulling their heads out by manufacturing more hemi, 4-valve, Twin OHC motors. Virtually all the Japanese doo-doo cars have had them for more than a decade, as well as sportbikes from 1986 on up, so why is it that we make hemis in the late 50's and 60's, then get away from them? Now we're copying European auto makers with some of our other engineering attributes. If you look at 1980's American auto engineering, except for the Fiero and a couple others, you would want to vomit. I remember buying my 88 GSXR 1100 brand new and asking myself why American auto makers didn't utilize that technology. What I didn't know is that it was in the works. We acuse the Japanese of stealing our ideas, but what they did was to make us grow up by perfecting upon our ideas.
The moral of my post is that you can run a V12 at lower RPM's, and grab the massive torque when you need it. The disadvantage is that you have 1 transmission option, the one that it comes with.
"The Cadillac/Oldsmobile Northstar engine family is next to impossible to modify."
For $800 you can buy cams, springs, and keepers that will give you 375HP and about 8k redline. What would you need to do to an LS-1 or 3800SC to get that kind of power and redline out and keep it at about the same weight as the N*? I think we're talking rods, forged crank, and massive cam and head work. Probably to the tune of well over 10k. I realize the Corvette LS-1 puts out 405 stock, but it weighs a bit more and doesn't have that kind of redline. Also, what is the price tag on a Corvette LS-1? Besides, the 5-speed hooks right up to the N* without an adaptor plate. I'm not trying to make this an LS-1 vs N8 thread, but you mentioned other V8's, and the LS-1 is the closest stock competitor to the N* when it comes to Fiero installs.
CHRFAB modifys the hell of N*'s. It can be cost prohibitive, but 1,000HP is achievable. Besides, what do you want to do with a N* that isn't already there? Forged crank and rods, block stuffer, 4 valves, twin overhead cam; what is left to make this motor more suitable? I guess it could be a little higher in displacement, but then you might have heavier pistons reducing your potential redline.
[This message has been edited by I'm Back (edited 11-24-2002).]
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02:04 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Who here thinks they could fit a V12 caddie N* in a fiero?
Who where has access to a Caddy N* XV12 engine? No one? Well, until someone can get access to one to take measurements, who knows? In theory? Yeah, in theory you can put a Rolls Royce Merlin 12 cylinder aircraft engine in a Fiero with enough $$$.
Now the Viper engine is simply too long. Go measure for yourself. Of course, if you wanted to make a custom rear tubular frame, widen the track, etc., yeah, again anything's possible with enough money. But you get to the point where you're building a $100,000 Fiero. Sure you COULD, but why would you want to? First person to step up with the money and do it, I'd love to read about it.
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04:10 PM
PFF
System Bot
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
The XV12 is suppose to be as wide as a northstar and as long and tall as the current 8.1L big block. People have fit northstars and big blocks So, yes it should fit
------------------ --Adam-- 1987 Blue GT 5-speed IM AOL: GTFiero Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs
Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops
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06:00 PM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
hey, i'm back, not to be a smart a$$ (cuz i could be wrong), but..."I realize the Corvette LS-1 puts out 405 stock, but it weighs a bit more and doesn't have that kind of redline. Also, what is the price tag on a Corvette LS-1?" i believe the corvette engine is called the LS6, which if memory serves me, it's an LS1 that has a lot better breathing capabilities.
-Fish
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07:08 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by I'm Back: The moral of my post is that you can run a V12 at lower RPM's, and grab the massive torque when you need it. The disadvantage is that you have 1 transmission option, the one that it comes with.
Cadillac is going back to RWD, so the V12 will be used longitudinally. Also, it has pathetic torque. 450 ftlbs may sound like a lot, but consider that it's a 7.5 litre engine and you'll see that it sucks. Because of that miserable torque figure, the V12 has to turn serious RPM to make it's power also.
Big blocks have gone into Fieros before, but after what surgery? The BBC is longer than the SBC and the water pump sticks out even further.
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07:40 PM
I'm Back Member
Posts: 3780 From: Phoenix, Az, USA Registered: Oct 2002
hey, i'm back, not to be a smart a$$ (cuz i could be wrong), but..."I realize the Corvette LS-1 puts out 405 stock, but it weighs a bit more and doesn't have that kind of redline. Also, what is the price tag on a Corvette LS-1?" i believe the corvette engine is called the LS6, which if memory serves me, it's an LS1 that has a lot better breathing capabilities.
-Fish
I stand corrected. It basically is derived from an LS-1, but I believe you're right .
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07:55 PM
I'm Back Member
Posts: 3780 From: Phoenix, Az, USA Registered: Oct 2002
Cadillac is going back to RWD, so the V12 will be used longitudinally. Also, it has pathetic torque. 450 ftlbs may sound like a lot, but consider that it's a 7.5 litre engine and you'll see that it sucks. Because of that miserable torque figure, the V12 has to turn serious RPM to make it's power also.
Big blocks have gone into Fieros before, but after what surgery? The BBC is longer than the SBC and the water pump sticks out even further.
Oh it will be RWD. GM has my love once again . I wonder what the tranny bolt pattern will look like? Hopefully the same as the current N*. What tranny will they run with? I bet rpm for rpm the V12 will be more streetable than the V8 N* in that you won't have to run quite the revs. WHat year is it comming out?
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08:01 PM
Borgio Member
Posts: 221 From: Kokomo, Indiana, USA Registered: Oct 2001
Cadillac is going back to RWD, so the V12 will be used longitudinally. Also, it has pathetic torque. 450 ftlbs may sound like a lot, but consider that it's a 7.5 litre engine and you'll see that it sucks. Because of that miserable torque figure, the V12 has to turn serious RPM to make it's power also.
Big blocks have gone into Fieros before, but after what surgery? The BBC is longer than the SBC and the water pump sticks out even further.
I haven't done any research on this engine previously, but a quick search and those are the numbers everyone is using. But that is weird. That hardly even makes any sense. That would take ungodly engine speeds. At LEAST 8750rpm, but it should be even more than THAT. I'm gonna say 9000+rpm. HOWEVER, if it becomes a production engine, that 750hp, should be reliable. And that's a lot of horses anyway you look at it, especially for a production engine. But, there are a lot of things that look cool about this engine. Actually, I editted this because 450ft/lbs is about right for 7.5 liters. Actually that's 60ft/lbs per liter, which is about normal. And I know they use variable valve timing, but if you can make that flat enough to be making useful power way up there then that's not bad. And it's supposed to be making 90% torque at 1500rpm. So you get useful power everwhere. You get more than you would ever need to begin with and instead of having to shift, you just keep getting more and more power.
[This message has been edited by Borgio (edited 11-24-2002).]
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08:37 PM
Nov 25th, 2002
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
60 ftlbs/litre might have been OK in the 1960's, but this is the 21st century. Any engine advanced enough to have GDI ought to have a sufficiently developed port design for at least 75 ftlbs/litre. Look at modern high end engines: F20C5 in the S2000 makes 75 ftlbs/litre, the BMW M3 engine makes 83ftlbs/litre, which is extremely close to 100% VE. 60 ftlbs/litre is only about 70% VE. The only thing good about that is that it's better than 60% VE. Heck, the Lamborghini V12 gets 450 ftlbs from 6.2 litres.
Bacially, GM has severely compromised the port design of that engine in the name of packaging. It's a botched design with the wrong priorities.
Why screw up a V12 to get it to fit in the space of a V8? An emissions legal 7.5 litre engine will put out the same output no matter how many cylinders it has. A 7.5 litre clean sheet V8 design would be better because it wouldn't have to be as compromised as the V12. That V12 is not about building a good engine. It's about selling to superficial people who are concerned with appearances rather than substance. It's a juxtaposition of form and function. It signifies everything that's wrong with American culture today.
So there.
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07:03 PM
87FieroGTx Member
Posts: 2630 From: Bath, New York, USA Registered: Jun 2001
I have been thinking about this sinceI heard about the engine. I was thinking to put a Corvette C5 6spd transmission though. Just a thought. If you are gonna go all out, you should really go all out.
------------------ 87 GT Holley Side Scoop---DELETE K&N Air Filter Home Page
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10:41 PM
Nov 26th, 2002
Borgio Member
Posts: 221 From: Kokomo, Indiana, USA Registered: Oct 2001
I agree, I thought it was weird that that it didn't make that much. And I did question their design because of that. And it does seem like they could have used 10 cylinders instead or something instead of 12, and gotten better results. I also question the thin cylinder wall design. But I don't know enough about their design to determine much. Anyone know the compression ratio? Anyone have an idea how much this engine might cost or how much a cien might cost? Probably way too expensive. I personally like the fact that it is so small, otherwise it would be even harder to fit into a fiero. I don't think that 60ft/lbs per liter is good at all either, and especially for an OHC engine, but I don't think its terrible either, it's just not good. 750 NA hp from a production engine, whether they could have done better or not is still awesome and I want one. I'll would wait until the price goes down and they have proven themselves as reliable, but they SHOULD be VERY reliable FOR 750hp. Production engines undergo much testing and companies get in trouble if they go bad too soon. Pesonally I like the idea of one of these in a fiero, BUT at what cost? And if you are going to go that far, then why not go with the Cien to start with?
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12:30 AM
PFF
System Bot
Will-Martin Member
Posts: 1164 From: DFW, TX, USA Registered: Aug 2002
Will rightly pointed out the fact that the engine is longitudinally mounted, which would make it pretty much a no go for the Fiero from the start. It looks to be way too long and would require serious modifications to fit into the chassis. To rotate and mount it laterally would be equally hard to do as you would have a lot of adapting to do for a tranny, fuel injection, towers, etc. At $250,000 a pop, you can also imagine what the price of the Cien’s engine will be, so it would be less trouble and you would end up with a more balanced vehicle if you went with a custom tube chassis design from the start. (Since you are spending all those snaps anyway)
I do not agree with Will on his view of poor design with regard to V12 vs. V8. The big selling point of the N* V12 is “Displacement on Demand” whereby only 6 of the 12 cylinders hit until the vehicle is romped. Engine balance, firing order, and feasability studies dictated a V12 design. With direct injection, the whole system works in unison to be more efficient / powerful when needed. From what I know, the engines are very good at delivering this power on demand and although the torque may seem anemic, compare it to the F50 -
F50 Cien
4.7 L 7.5 L 513 hp 750 hp 347 tq 450 tq
While clearly not as efficiently as the Ferrari or a current Lambo engine, America does it bigger, better?, and wins again. Take into consideration the development cycle and timeline of Dodge’s new V-10 engine series. It was FAR from perfect the first couple of years, but now, that is a beast of an engine. I am sure that the N* V12 will undergo some refinement over the next decade and we will wind up with a viable super car engine, that is until all of the fun killers at GM decide to scrap Cien and build a Cadillac Civic to compete with the ever growing, ever popular tuner market. Bastards.
--Will
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03:47 AM
naskie18 Member
Posts: 6258 From: Commerce Twp, MI, USA Registered: Jun 2002
hey, i'm back, not to be a smart a$$ (cuz i could be wrong), but..."I realize the Corvette LS-1 puts out 405 stock, but it weighs a bit more and doesn't have that kind of redline. Also, what is the price tag on a Corvette LS-1?" i believe the corvette engine is called the LS6, which if memory serves me, it's an LS1 that has a lot better breathing capabilities.
-Fish
The Corvette engine is an LS1, the Corvette Z06 engine is an LS6.
Nick
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09:57 AM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
First of all performance isn't the only reason for doing an engine swap. I certainly could have installed a SBC for less and had just as much if not more power. The wow factor also plays in, and having something new and different.
There is a corvette version of the LS1, it was used in the first few years of the C-5, and put out about 350 HP. The LS6 came later. The differences between the ls1 and six are heads, cam and intake. All LS6 parts fit an LS1. There is actually a whole LS family of engines, and not all are aluminum.
375 HP is a small leap for an LS1. Cam and headers alone get you there.( my hot cam package is on its way) , and I was already running one LS6 manifold , and one custom one , and LS6 MAF.
I have noticed a trend of the N* guys picking on the LS1. I have kept my mouth shut because I try my best to avoid flames and it is pointless. When GM pulls the LS1/6 out of the Vette I will buy its performance superiority. Just sounds like a case of little brother trying to pick on big brother to me. I could have rebutted some points in the other thread, but like I said it is pointless. Personally I like the N* swaps.
I was at the NHRA drag races at Heartland Park in Topeka,KS a few years ago. The eliminations started with a parade down the strip of unique and powerfull cars. One guy had a 1934 Ford that was turbine powered and he could lay rubber almost all the way down the strip. This guy had spent 6 years and many thousands of dollars on this car. I guess my point is, anything is possible, at a price. Remember John Norman? I think he still owns a V8 supercharged/turbocharged Fiero that last I heard was parked in his garage. I guess he lost interest or money in it. I'll bet he had over $50k in that car. Why don't you see if he wants to sell it?....Paul
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10:00 AM
jlhuber Member
Posts: 881 From: Hope, MI, USA Registered: Oct 1999
