I have over 1800 miles on my (grooms) rebuilt 3.4. After the first 500 miles I noticed some valvetrain noise. It sounds like some different things are ticking, and it's all jumbled together. It isn't a distinctive or rythmic tapping like a exhaust manifold leak. It is quiet at idle and makes the noise under acceleration, and under load like passing on the interstate. I also have to top off the oil with a quart or so at every fillup. It never used oil until now. I don't see any smoke and I can't find any oil leaks. It likes to bog down (cold) to about 500 rpms when I try to go to work in the morning and when I leave work for home. Sometimes it just dies. I'm in Indy for memorial weekend and would like to tackle this before I have to drive back to Joliet Mon. night, if possible. Where should I start?

[This message has been edited by Coop88 (edited 05-25-2002).]

Since the noise is only under acceleration, it could be spark knock (detonation). This can be caused by fuel octane, compression ratio, ignition timing or a lean condition. The compression increases as the rings seat during break in (less leakage around the rings).

Start by checking the plugs and checking the timing. If the TDC mark is off, the timing looks right by a timing light but is physically to far advanced. If you are using regular gas, step up to premium. I have a Ford 351HO that wont run on regular.

James

When an engine is rebuilt , it will use oil , until the rings seat to the bore . This can take many miles . Change oil NOW . 500 mi. and alot of stuff can be floating around . Change again about after 1000 more mi. DO NOT keep the rpm's at a solid # . You might be past this point though . It's called a break in period so be patient . wait to test acceleration and high rpm's Good luck !!!!!

I tried running premium gas but it didn't help. I'll play with the timing some more. The funny thing is, I didn't start to use oil until AFTER the first 500 miles. That's also when I started hearing these noises. I did change the oil after those 500 miles. That was a week ago.

Coop, I wouldn't say that a quart of oil every 300 mi is normal even for a break-in engine. The noise you describe does sound like a leaky exhaust manifold but I would have to hear it b4 I would say that was it. If you are familiar w/ that noise and you don't think that is it then an obvious guess is in the valve train... For instance, if the cam/cam bearings had too much play, it would be fairly quiet at low rpm and no load. As you increase either or both, the cam will bounce around and cause several noises (cam bounce, loose pushrods/lifters, cam chain/gear slap etc). I'm not saying this is it as this is only an example. Unfortunately, the only way to find it is to dig in. I would report the oil consumption to grooms and keep driving it. Initial ring seat should be within 1K miles even on a rough honing job. With todays machining capabilities, break-in is usually within 500 mi. I once went to look at a car that a salvage yard had for sale. While there the owner had a '66 mustang convertible (in great shape) that he was getting ready for sale. As I walked up to talk w/ him he gave the car his 'make it or break' test which was... He floored it neutral for about 20 seconds and if it lived with no additional noises he would sell it. (I obviously didn't make any purchases that day...) Anyway, if that engine is under warranty and doesn't get better and you have a difficult time with the rebuilders, give it the 'make it or break it' test. GL

I've driven a fiero with a leaking exhaust manifold before. The leaking exhaust manifold sounds like a sewing machine. My engine does not make this noise. It's the same noise my celebrity 2.8 made after 180k miles and my original fiero 2.8 after 150k miles. Sort of a clatter. I've got some things to do before I mess with the timing, but here are some other things I've noticed:

1. Blue smoke at start-up. Lots if I hit the throttle. I think this is where my oil consumption is coming from and it's a good bet why it likes to bog and die in the morning or after it has sat for awhile(cold). Can an engine still burn oil after it has warmed up but you can't see any smoke?

2. When it's cold, the oil pressure is pegged (I have a high volume oil pump), and the valve noise is much quieter. Not stopped, just quieter. As the engine warms up, the pressure comes down, the noise is louder. What does this mean?

Thanks for the help so far.

Well, you are #4 with this problem from Grooms engines.

If you will email me a phone number, I will call you and tell you the stories by each case.

The oil comsumption is not going to quit, and the valve train noise is possiblly a bearing coming apart.

I have personally seen each problem above.

Loyde

Uh-Oh... The plot thickens. As I mentioned in the above post, is there any warranty at all on this engine?

I calculated my mileage, and I have 1896 miles on my engine. I have an 18 month warranty on my engine.

At warm idle my oil pressure is halfway between 40 and zero. My 2.8 idled with a pressure of 40. Could the oil pump be the problem? Valve seals?

Coop sounds like you've got major engine probs period.....sounds like ring probs and valve probs and prob main and/or rob brg prbs. I'd say you need an engine buddy. I hate to say that....but that is what it sounds like.

Phil

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GTDude
25 years GM experience

I tinkered with it a little last night. I found oil on plugs 2,4,6, and inside my upper plenum. I did a compression check and they were all between 130-140. I have over 2000 miles on the engine now. One of my problems is that I can't take it to Ten. for warranty work while they're open because I work Mon-Fri. It might be cheaper to fix it myself vs. the cost of taking the car to Ten from the Chicago area and then renting a car for however long the repair takes. I'm living on my savings right now while I'm doing my internship in IL. A car rental would take a huge chunk out of it. Man this sucks. I'll call Grooms when they open tomorrow and see what they say.

The oil in the upper plenum is curious... Have you checked out the PCV system as a whole? Obviously, that wouldn't give you a "loud" engine but it may reveal the quality of the work done on the engine. It also might point at excessive blow-by whereby the postitive pressure and higher than normal volume of it, are pushing a lot of oil up through the PCV on the vacuum side.

[This message has been edited by 87GTZ34 (edited 05-28-2002).]

Sounds like you get a new engine...

Call em up, let em know...
Good luck..
Grab your paperwork and all receipts...

Grab a lawyer if they give you problems.

Get a refund if at all possible, and go ELSEWHERE.

I called Grooms today and he said it's my PCV system. He told me that my valve covers are probably clogged and that it was a common problem with these engines. He said that the clogged cover(s) are causing pressure that is sucking/pushing oil into my plenum, and when the oil reaches the combustion chamber it reduces the octane of the air/fuel mix, causing the noise I hear under load. During the conversation I remembered that my rubber grommets keep leaking(new) and that there was oil all over the front cover(this happened on my 2.8 also). He said this proved his point. He also told me to make sure all my PCV tubes were clear. I guess I'll be taking the covers off and cleaning them out.

Once you do this, do an oil change... Do it yourself and make sure you change the filter as well....
Right after you pull the plug, run your fingers into the draining oil... Pull em out. If you see ANY reflective metal shavings, you get a new engine.

Get a new PCV Valve and make sure your PCV system is thoroughly cleaned... If this does not solve the problem, I suggest hitting a mechanics shop, let them double check just to be safe... Get a receipt for it. When they are done if the problem is not solved, then you have proof that you did what he asked.

My 3.4 is a Grooms engine prepared by Ed Parks (drilling, etc.). Up to now it has near 20K miles. This car sees 6K RPM every time I use it. I drive it very hard all the time. I never shift below 3.5K RPMs. Up to now it works perfectly and it never consumes any oil. Check your warranty, but if you don't take it there there is nothing they will do. Hope it is the PCV system. Good luck.

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Alex4mulas :-)
N2O! 3.4!

Dang, good luck with everything. Keep us posted.

I cleaned out the valve covers, PCV tubes, upper plenum, and installed a new AC/Delco PCV valve. I will find out tonight if the car still consumes oil when I go back to Joliet. The noise is still there. I hear it at 2800-3500 rpms, unless I'm passing in a high gear. Then I hear it at lower rpms. I'll see how it drives tonight and call Grooms tomorrow.

Even after cleaning all of that out, if you STILL hear the noise, I suggest you DO NOT DRIVE the car... Do as I recommended up above, check the oil for ANY metal flakes of ANY kind. I can't hear the noise in person, but I had a car that had a hellacious rod knock at anything above 2500 RPM but was silent at idle....

Could also be a lifter, cam bearing, anything. If the engine is making noise, the rings could have cracked, may not have seated properly in the first place, or you have something loose inside...

I STRONGLY suggest you park it, change the oil as suggested, and search for ANYTHING in the oil....

Contact Grooms, and get yourself a new engine.

Mechanic probably lost his wristwatch inside and did not realize it.

Your rod bearings could be worn or bad.. that happened to me yesterday.
Your problem sounds a lot like mine, except mine was on a 2.8.

I changed the oil before I left Indy last night. Found shavings in the bottom of my oil pan. Still burns oil and the noise is there. Called Grooms and they won't touch it unless it's out of the car. Problem is it's my only vehicle and I don't have time to take the cradle back out while I'm doing my internship. I'm thinking about putting in heavier weight oil and babying it. Not much else I can do right now.

quote Originally posted by Coop88: I changed the oil before I left Indy last night. Found shavings in the bottom of my oil pan. Still burns oil and the noise is there. Called Grooms and they won't touch it unless it's out of the car. Problem is it's my only vehicle and I don't have time to take the cradle back out while I'm doing my internship. I'm thinking about putting in heavier weight oil and babying it. Not much else I can do right now.

You are running the risk of air-mailing a rod through the side of the block. If you're going to drive it, keep a fire extinguisher handy.
Whatever you do, don't run it past the warranty period.
They owe you...

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

Yup. As most of us have said, you get a new engine...
There is NO REASON it should have metal shavings unless it was improperly assembled... No, they won't touch it in the car, but they SHOULD at least help you out with a loaner vehicle, or partial payment (if not full payment) of a rental car...

It is worth having it fixed properly.
The engine is under warranty.. The metal shavings are from the lower end bearings. As was stated, you run the risk of putting a rod through the block. And then Grooms might be able to say you did not break it in properly, you did not do this, you did not do that, and then refuse ANY warranty. Do NOT give them the option of this.... DO NOT DRIVE THE CAR!

When my car died, I found enough people who loaned me a spare car for the duration (4 months) that it was down.

Update:

I have sent the engine back to Grooms. Turns out that 2 lifter bores were "wallered out". This allowed oil to be pumped up to the top of the engine, more than it could handle. I found rather large pieces of metal in the oil pan. They were paper thin and were comparable in size to a fingernail. Grooms denied this came from my engine, and assured me that my bearings were fine. Since Grooms does not have any oversize lifters, they must find another core. The engine was shipped to Grooms on the 19th of June, and after nearly a month Grooms cannot find another 3.4 block to build. I called them this past Friday and told them that if they couldn't send me an engine by this Friday, to refund my money. My formula has been on jackstands for 3 of the past 4 months. I have been borrowing my girlfriend's car until this morning, when I went to leave for work the starter motor kept turning. Even with the keys out of the ignition. Lots of smoke from the starter area. I disconnected the battery. I just forked out $450.00 today for a rental this week (includes deposit). I also have to get my girlfriend's car to Indy for repair. Please see my post in General Fiero Chat.

As has been said before in this thread, your case is not uncommon. While speaking with a tech at a well known Fiero shop a few weeks ago, they have had a major problem with grooms engines, and they are now looking for a new supplier/builder. It sounds like you are not alone in this.

Ok, can anyone see my previous 2 posts from today?

Edit: Nevermind, I see them now.

[This message has been edited by Coop88 (edited 07-15-2002).]

Yes, they're both there.

Lousy luck with that engine.

coop, i see your posts.

ANd are you talking about the joliet near rt30 and I55 here in illinios? Cause if you are i am not far form ya at all!

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'88 Red SE (4.9 SPFI in progress)
'99 Black Dodge Intrepid

Is it just me? I noticed when I checked out the Groom's engine site that they want you to send a complete engine(long block) in for rebuild, and if you don't they charge for the parts you didn't include. Doesn't this make one believe that they are reusing these parts? I wouldn't trust an engine rebuilt with used parts, even if they are inspected and ok'ed for reuse.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Is it just me? I noticed when I checked out the Groom's engine site that they want you to send a complete engine(long block) in for rebuild, and if you don't they charge for the parts you didn't include. Doesn't this make one believe that they are reusing these parts? I wouldn't trust an engine rebuilt with used parts, even if they are inspected and ok'ed for reuse.

That's why they call it a "rebuilt" engine. They use the old parts....reconditioned in the vehicle. Used heads, block, intake...etc.

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

Coop,

Get your refund and go to www.gmpartsdirect.com part number 12363230

I'm pretty sure GM builds a good engine, and has a decent warranty to stand behind it.

Glenn

Grooms shipped me another engine and I received it yesterday (7-19). They also sent me a check for $270.00 (labor for me removing the engine + misc. fluids) and drilled my starter holes. Since this is a new (different) block, I have to repaint it. The humidity is really slowing down the drying process. Anything I can do to speed this up? Hairdryer, maybe? I'd really like to get this done and take it back to Joliet tomorrow so I don't have to drop another $250 for a rental car next week.

Run to the hardware store, grab a couple of 150w light sockets, and a pair of 150w infra-red lamps.

Arrange on on either side of motor. That'll cure it nice and quick.

Be sure to stand them a couple of feet back, or it'll get HOT.

I've got less than 400 miles on my SECOND Grooms engine. I hear the same sound as the previous engine, except it's not as severe and I'm not using any oil--as far as I can tell. I just can't get a break. I'm considering just tearing it back down this weekend and replacing the lifters. This would be alot cheaper than renting another car for 2+ weeks. How hard is it replacing those d@mn things anyway? Taking the intake off is easy, I've had lots of practice now. How much time/money would it take to replace them?

quote Originally posted by Coop88: I've got less than 400 miles on my SECOND Grooms engine. I hear the same sound as the previous engine, except it's not as severe and I'm not using any oil--as far as I can tell. I just can't get a break. I'm considering just tearing it back down this weekend and replacing the lifters. This would be alot cheaper than renting another car for 2+ weeks. How hard is it replacing those d@mn things anyway? Taking the intake off is easy, I've had lots of practice now. How much time/money would it take to replace them?

Before you replace anything, I would first remove the rocker cover and see if the rocker arms were installed correctly. If they are loose, you might be able to get away with torquing them back down. If they torqued them too tight, you may just have some bent pushrods. Before you go spending money on parts, I would check what's there. If you have damaged rockers or pushrods, let me know I have a set of lifters, rods, rockers and a stock cam just sitting on the bench. If they used the wrong nuts on the rocker arms, You can get new ones. Also what oil are you using? If your using a 5W, you could go up to a 10W and see if it helps.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

Good idea. I didn't think about the rocker arms. I'll be heading down to Indy tomorrow after work. Maybe a rocker is just loose. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Thanks for the oil pan.

Can a rocker arm be loose and appear to be tight? I've taken off the valve covers and the rockers seem to be tight. No play in the pushrods either. I can go ahead and re-torque everything, but I'd like to know I'm not gonna have to shell out more $$ for gaskets if I have to take it back apart. Worst case scenario-how hard is it to replace the lifters?

Did you check all the rockers while the valves were closed? (You need to turn the engine by hand to verify them. Even though they appear tight, they could also be too tight. If they are too tight they could kill lifters and bend pushrods.

If the lifters are bad, the entire intake has to be removed.