Archie.....or anyone else for that matter...have you ever tried to put a V-8 Pontiac engine like a 400 or 455 in a Fiero? Is it possible without ALOT of reworking everything. Would be kewl to have a 455 HO engine in a Fiero. Very heavy engine though. Comments?

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GTDude
25 years GM experience

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Archie.....or anyone else for that matter...have you ever tried to put a V-8 Pontiac engine like a 400 or 455 in a Fiero? Is it possible without ALOT of reworking everything. Would be kewl to have a 455 HO engine in a Fiero. Very heavy engine though. Comments?

Phil,

I'm sure someone has more to add than me but I seem to recall that the Poncho engines haven't been done much for the following reasons:

1. Too big for the engine bay. Even a small block is a big block apparently.
2. Not enough aftermarket compared to the SBC to make it worthwhile...depends on what you want I guess. Of course, your definition of enough aftermarket and worthwhile may be different

Think this came up a while back when someone asked about a small block Poncho.

Cheers,
Andrew

maybe a year or so ago there was a pontiac mag. with a 455 fiero. they used the front wheel drive train that is in the big gm cars from the late 70's i think, so it was turned 90 deg.

i think some one from way back on the forum did it too.

and rockcrawl? did you?

The Pontiac block is much wider than the SBC, not to mention heavier. It's just not well suited to the Fiero. I asked Archie this some time ago, and he said there were many reasons not to use the Pontiac engine, but he didn't elaborate.

The only way, I believe, you can put a Pontiac engine in a Fiero is to do it longitudinally. I've seen it done with a Toronado Turbo425 transaxle in the back of the Fiero, but you also loose your trunk. Not something I would be intereted in.

There was a post a month or so ago by a guy
in Canada (in the MALL) who wanted to sell his V8 Fiero - he had a pontiac 305 CI engine in it. He had at least one picture.

quote Originally posted by 85SE: Even a small block is a big block apparently.

There is no small or big block designations when it comes to Pontiacs. Just displacement.

Hartz

[This message has been edited by Hartz (edited 03-28-2002).]

Read down about 1/2 way on this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/017084.html

There are at least 3 cars shown on the page with a couple more links listed!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

It is wider than a SBC but not by that much I don't think. I mean they fit in the Gran Prix's of the mid/late 80's so they can't be that wide cause that car doesn't have much room in it despite how big they look. I don't think it could be as wide as an OHC motor but more importantly what angle are the exhaust flanges??? If they angled down slightly I can see it fitting in there. Anything is do-able. They are good motors when built up.

The 455 Pnotiac was put in a Fiero and it is in: High Performance Pontiac febuary 2000 issue. I have it but i don't have a scanner
so i can't post any pics of it.
It's a 12 sec car though. If there's any details that anyone would like to know please feel free to email me and i'll be happy to share the article by either reading and answering your questions or copying it and sending it to you via snail mail.

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Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts
86 GT modified
85 SE daily driver

LOL......well first of all....Pontiac never made a small block.....all pontiac V8 blocks are the same casting from the mid 50's models to the 326's 350's 400's 428's 455's...all the same.....even the 301 used a similar casting with alot of weight taken off and the deck height shaved alot. I think the full size ones weigh like 850 or 900 lbs......so I wasn't hopeful...just curious mostly....thought it would be kewl to have a big v8 poncho motor in my Fiero. That would be one ass end heavy sucker tho.....LOL.

Any other suggestions besides the caddy or chevy v8's.....I want something different...and not something different and extrememly expensive......of course.....lol. Hmmmm maybe even a DOHC 3400 with nitrous! Oh well......prob just dreaming anyway.

Phil

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GTDude
25 years GM experience

There is a guy here locally that built a fiero with a 455 olds. Its a Torque monster. Its not for the street he runs it at Cicero on the 1/4 mile. So, it can be done but it involves lots of cutting and fabrication. Also I know someone that was planning to use a 500 cadilac motor/tranny out of an eldroado. I guess that in Fla. the air boats use this motor alot and there are lots of performance parts for them. Im not sure if hes moved forward on this project.

quote Originally posted by GTDude: LOL......well first of all....Pontiac never made a small block.....all pontiac V8 blocks are the same casting from the mid 50's models to the 326's 350's 400's 428's 455's...all the same.....even the 301 used a similar casting with alot of weight taken off and the deck height shaved alot. I think the full size ones weigh like 850 or 900 lbs......so I wasn't hopeful...just curious mostly....thought it would be kewl to have a big v8 poncho motor in my Fiero. That would be one ass end heavy sucker tho.....LOL. Any other suggestions besides the caddy or chevy v8's.....I want something different...and not something different and extrememly expensive......of course.....lol. Hmmmm maybe even a DOHC 3400 with nitrous! Oh well......prob just dreaming anyway. Phil

Phil,

Guess I should have remembered your 25 years experience and added quotes to my small block and big block...I know that Pontiac engines go by displacement only, but I thought someone said (it would agree with what you said) that the smaller displacements did have smaller external dimensions.

At any rate, let's think....how about a diesel? LOL!

Have you heard about the Euro guys who have stuffed the VW VR6 in there? I remember that there was someone either here on the eGroups list talking it up one time a year or two ago. I'll do a search and see if I can come up with anything. Think they claimed to be using the 6 speed tranny too.

Cheers,
Andrew
PS: if you don't mind me asking, what is your primary work now - I mean, something with engine, transmission, general? Just curious...

2 words, Rover V8

Power like a 'small' sbc and less weight than a Duke. I've never seen one done in a Fiero but I'd love to see(own) one.

BUICK 455's is the smallest outside block of GM's bigones in stage 1 tune a 70 model is all so the strongest of the stock hyd-lifter motors
rated at 425 hp realy about 500 hp when tuned
allso smaller than a 350 chevy block and lighter but now rare and pricie
but any non chevy GM V-8 needs a NEW DIFFERENT adpt plate made for BOP-c pattern

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by 85GToronto: 2 words, Rover V8 Power like a 'small' sbc and less weight than a Duke. I've never seen one done in a Fiero but I'd love to see(own) one.

I measured one up. Should fit ok. Well if you can put one in a Mini it will fit ok. They are about the same size as a small block Chev but a lot lighter.

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My Old Fiero | Accessories

Aus I just saw one recently in an Auto trader here for $600 cnd complete. If I didn't have other peojects I'd buy it. They weigh around 320 lbs from what I hear, wow thats a light V8. I talked to a guy in a local British car club, he said 300-350 HP isn't too hard. Some SBC internals will work. Sounds like a great combination to me!

85SE......I'm on workers comp right now....hurt my back. Don't think I'll be able to return to being a tech as a profession again, but I can still work on my own stuff for sure. I'm going into the computer field which I also have alot of exerience in, tho not alot of formal training. Time to start a new career. I'm ready...my joints and back and bones were beginning to hurt bad after a hard days work. Upward and onward!

Phil

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GTDude
25 years GM experience

Ive just got to make a small correction. The pontiac 301 was a small block. It came in the 1980 T/A in a turbo version. Ive driven a few, very quick motor for its size(when the turbo is working). If anyone is serious about putting a pontiac V8 in a fiero I have some parts that Id be willing to donate to the cause. there left overs from my GTO days.

quote Originally posted by GTDude: 85SE......I'm on workers comp right now....hurt my back. Don't think I'll be able to return to being a tech as a profession again, but I can still work on my own stuff for sure. I'm going into the computer field which I also have alot of exerience in, tho not alot of formal training. Time to start a new career. I'm ready...my joints and back and bones were beginning to hurt bad after a hard days work. Upward and onward! Phil

Phil,

Sorry to hear of your misfortunes. The reason I asked - you often spoke of the areas of the car you worked on, and I always thought that many mechs specialized in an area.

Best of luck in your future endeavours. I too am in the computer industry - graduating with my B.Eng. in May (in Canada, most universities offer the engineering degree as its own degree rather than as a Science degree). Sometimes I wonder if I chose the correct path - I seem to find cars so much more interesting than computers nowadays. I think computers lost their mistique for me when I learned so much about them...doh!

Again, sorry to hear that something you so obviously enjoyed doing has been taken away from you as a means to make a living.

Cheers,
Andrew

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Andrew - 85SE - AKA Fieroless in Newfoundland :(

After 25 years of doing anything you tend to get tired of it. I'd rather talk cars than work on them now........lol. Thanks for the well wishes tho.

Sorry, but the 301, tho small in size is not classified as a small block engine. In fact, a 400 crank will fit in the block but the block has been milled so much on the 301 that the 400 crank rod throws are just way too long. It's basically the same block in an engineering sort of way.

Phil

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GTDude
25 years GM experience

I've got a rebuilt,'63 Olds 215 4bbl/H.O. motor,if anyone wants to try and put one in a Fiero!
Those Pontiacs all look like big blocks to me;didn't the 348 evolve into the Chevy bb?

Would be nice to have a 320lbs all aluminum v8 in a fiero. there is a guy mating one to a getrag on the fast vair list , he is putting it in a 66 corvair.

I have a Buick 215 in my garage , but speaking from experience it's not a cheap motor to get HP from. The one in our corvair cost quite a lot to build , it revs to 7 grand all day long , it's a beautiful progressive powerband , but it all came at a high cost.

If I were to do the swap I would look for a 4.6ltr Range rover engine. More cubes , better oiling system , same basic motor. (Bill mitchell designed the BOP 215's and sold the design to British Lelyand in 67 , they have been perfecting the motor ever since.

JM

Phil

There is a friend of mine right here in Virigina about an hour from you whom has a 455 /Toronado tranny in his fiero

He runs it on the street/strip. Talk about something with a hugh punch.WOWWWW!!!!!

He owns the local Fiero Salvage Yard

Mail me for the phone.

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Jesse Thomas
racer_jt@adelphia.net
1986 GT Auto 100k
possible bad 2.8
We build Custom Playhomes
Thomas Family Playhomes

[This message has been edited by Racer_JT (edited 04-07-2002).]

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Sorry, but the 301, tho small in size is not classified as a small block engine

Yup, the 301 is a "low deck" version of the standard Pontiac V8 block. The only real differences are the crank journals. There was a "large journal" and a "small journal" engine block, but they were externally the same.

If there was a way to put a Pontiac V8 in a Fiero as easily as Archie can put in a SBC, I'd be all over it, but it's just not that simple.

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Sorry, but the 301, tho small in size is not classified as a small block engine... Phil

Can someone please define the terms "small block" and "big block" Other than the idea that one is bigger than the other, I wish I knew what makes a motor one or the other. Displacement doesn't seem to be the only determining factor. Thanks.

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1988 Coupe
Fiero - It's like an Actual Miniature Car

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-07-2002).]

i forgot the exact issue, but if you look through some old hot rod mags, like '85-'87, there was an article on the buick 215 where you mix and match parts to go almost anywhere bettween 215-305ci. the only thing i remember off hand is you use the last years heads and mustang svo pistons on the biggest combo.

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Phil T.

start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.

The one in our Corvair is 4.2ltrs , We have the parts to built a 303 version of the engine using a Buick 300 crank.

The crank is the main part of the conversion , the rest is of the shelf speed parts.

JM

Hey Phil,

Give me a call and I'll take you over to see Dave one day so you can see his with the 455 in it.

He's in Ferncliff next to Zions X-Roads on 250 towards Richmond. I have to go see him this weekend coming up about an engine for me. Let me know!

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Archie.....or anyone else for that matter...have you ever tried to put a V-8 Pontiac engine like a 400 or 455 in a Fiero? Is it possible without ALOT of reworking everything. Would be kewl to have a 455 HO engine in a Fiero. Very heavy engine though. Comments?

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Jesse Thomas
racer_jt@adelphia.net
1986 GT Auto 100k
possible bad 2.8
We build Custom Playhomes
Thomas Family Playhomes

!@#$%^& !@#$%^&

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-07-2002).]

Yeah. This give Pontiacs a nice advantage. Parts swaps between different size Pontiac engines real easy, and engine swaps are a no brainer. Do you have a Pontiac 350 in your car? Well, a 455 will drop in exactly. Only difference is, engine mounts changed from 2 bolt to 3 bolt designs in the 60's so you have to get a block with the correct mount holes, although adapters are available if you have a 3 bolt block and 2 bolt mounts.

FYI: Pontiac engines are broken down as Large Jounral and Small Journal, but all are the same exterior size.

3.00" crankshaft journal (small):
326, 350, 400

3.25" crankshaft journal (large):
389, 421, 428, 455

The large journals are very rigid, but the extra friction of the larger bearing size hurts rpm capability. Not a real problem, since Pontiacs aren't Hi-rpm engines to begin with.

Interesting note: A Pontiac 455 weighs less than a Pontiac 350, because the block has bigger cylinder bores, and hence, less material. Hmm, bigger, more powerful engine, and less weight. Oh yeah! They still weigh a crapload more than a Chevy 350, though.

I know this is an old topic, and I don't know if PIP is working right yet, but here's the VA Pro Street car with that was at the FOCOA show in Williamsburg in 2001.


Is there an easy way to size pics in MS Office 2000 or Photo deluxe Home Edition 4.0?
If you're a computer guru, email me.Thanks,

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Notchbacks Rule
84 Coupe(project car)
85GT(show car)
86???(looking)
87SE (daily driver)
88Coupe (daily driver)

Thats my buddy Daves Fear Arrow

Check out his site http://www.ferncliffauto.homestead.com/

I also know another guy here that has a 500 Caddy in his. He also does a Testarossa kit. The company is Nethkan Assoc.

E-mail if anyone needs more info on these cars

Later,

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Jesse Thomas
racer_jt@playhomes.net
1986 GT Auto 100k

We build Custom Playhomes

www.playhomes.net

Here is a 455 longitude config. (have to lose the trunk).

If you want something different try a BMW V12. I hear they are about the same size as a Chevy V8. They are farely cheap if you can find them. I was talking to a guy at a car show. He bought his from a salvage yard for 45 bucks. Cost a fortune to rebuild though. If you can find someone to machine the block. from what he told me they are almost impossible to bore.

quote Originally posted by William Federle: There was a post a month or so ago by a guy in Canada (in the MALL) who wanted to sell his V8 Fiero - he had a pontiac 305 CI engine in it. He had at least one picture.

Canadian Pontiacs got Chevy engines.
He probably just pulled a small block out of a Pontiac.

in about 1980 GM branded all v8 motors by division BUT THEY WERE ALL CHEVY MOUSE MOTORS [small blocks] even in caddys

last real indian v8 was about 78 then they used olds 403s a few years in trans ams then only chevys other than the pos turbo v8 in trans ams [can you say BANG] it sure could!!!!!!
pontiac used one basic motor 55 to 77 only bore and stroke changed!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd