ok guys,

I know u guys have used a t3/t4 turbo from a thunderbird, etc with success. But would a turbo from a talon work? the talon is a 2.0L inline 4. the stock turbo is good for 15-16psi of boost on that car.

would it work?

That's sort of an open-ended question and the answer is probably, yes. Just about any passenger turbocharger can be fitted to another passenger vehicle but its the turbo's efficiency that really counts. I think that what you are really asking is how well that turbo's flow rating matches the fiero's requirements. Do you have any compressor maps for the turbo you are talking about?

Farknocker

We will be trying to mount it on a 2.8 V6 and eventually be aiming at 10PSI of boost.

Here is a map for a 14G turbo:
http://john.lambert.tripod.com/Links/map1.jpg

a 16G:
http://john.lambert.tripod.com/Links/map3.jpg

and a 13G turbo
http://www.stealth316.com/images/td04-13g-jlspec.gif

Please not that the 13G is the smallest and the 16G the largest. also the 13&14G's will be easier to find/cheeper.

any help appreciated

[This message has been edited by *cpt*seawolf (edited 07-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by *cpt*seawolf (edited 07-30-2002).]

Ok so you have the compressor flow maps. Sit down and plot them. Figure out how much airflow your engine will flow, add the boost, plot it and see what the maps tell you.

You have to remember that the 14b was designed for a 2.0 l iter engine. It is going to be pretty small. It will work but won't be efficient up top and will just blow hot air.

The learge 16g would probably be your best bet with a Tdo5H 7cm turbine housing

Lag is overrated

I beg to differ, I believe the 4G63 engine probabally outflows the fiero v6 engine, therefore any turbo that would work on that engine would be more than enough to run on a fiero engine. Another turbo I would recommend for a Fiero would be a Toyota CT26, it flows air up till 15 PSI, and it runs out of breath around 5500 RPM which is right around the time a fiero needs to be shifting anyway. Im not saying a TDO5 wouldnt be a good turbo, im just saying that even the smallest mitsu turbo would be overkill for a fiero enigine unless you built it to take over 7-10 PSI which I wouldnt throw any more than that at a fiero engine, and I definately wouldnt do even that much without upgrading the fuel, and using an intercooler of some sort. Just my .02.

quote Originally posted by Luni420: I beg to differ, I believe the 4G63 engine probabally outflows the fiero v6 engine, therefore any turbo that would work on that engine would be more than enough to run on a fiero engine. Another turbo I would recommend for a Fiero would be a Toyota CT26, it flows air up till 15 PSI, and it runs out of breath around 5500 RPM which is right around the time a fiero needs to be shifting anyway. Im not saying a TDO5 wouldnt be a good turbo, im just saying that even the smallest mitsu turbo would be overkill for a fiero enigine unless you built it to take over 7-10 PSI which I wouldnt throw any more than that at a fiero engine, and I definately wouldnt do even that much without upgrading the fuel, and using an intercooler of some sort. Just my .02.

The 4G63 does outflow the Fiero engine but not at lower rpm which is why they make no torque. Full boost on a stock talon motor with a stock turbo is like 3500 rpm. With a fiero it would reach that much lower. And then be blowing nothing but hot air up top. Dude do you even know how to plot a compressor map?

And this CT26 turbo. It flows 15 psi and runs out of breath at 5500 rpm but on what engine? I doubt you are talking about a fiero engine here. So if you are not then this turbo would have to be plotted for the 2.8. Also what compressor does this CT26 run? Got a flow map for one?

The smallest mitsu turbo eh? Ok lets see how about the T-25 on the 2nd gen talons. Even all the talon owners say they are too small for a 2.0 liter engine and you think it would be "overkill" on a 2.8/3.1/3.4? HAHAHA whatever dude. You need to go back to school.

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Formula 5 spd

Shaun41178@hotmail.com

0-bj in .8 seconds

The volumetric efficiency of an engine is a KEY factor in the equation. A low VE engine like a pushrod V6 running below 10psi boost really does not need a huge turbo, and lag IS a factor one should plan against if "street" performance is a concern.
I use an aftermarket TD05-16g 7cm on my 3100 which has a higher VE than a Fiero 2.8. I am running around 10psi right now (no intercooler ), and it seems to be sized about right, so I would say a stock TD05 from a pre-96 5-spd eclipse would probably work ok on a 2.8L Fiero. Probably makes more sense when you look at the fact that the mits 2.0L engines have a VE at 6000 rpm close to 90% with a 7000 rpm redline. Pushrod 60 deg. V6 engines are typically around 60%-70% VE with a 5800 rpm redline. By using a very rough equation for comparison of VE vs displacement :

0.90 * 2000 = 1800 (Mits. 2.0L)
0.65 * 2800 = 1820 (Fiero 2.8L)

You can see that they are actually pretty close.

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Red 88 Fiero Formula 5spd
Turbocharged 3100 SFI

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 07-30-2002).]

quote Originally posted by *cpt*seawolf: [B] and a 13G turbo http://www.stealth316.com/images/td04-13g-jlspec.gif Please not that the 13G is the smallest and the 16G the largest. also the 13&14G's will be easier to find/cheeper. any help appreciated [B]

Another thing you could do if you were looking at a 13g would be to get a used 9b from a 6g72 and have it rebuilt with a 13g,15g, or 17g wheel. For comparison I have two 15g's on my vr-4 and I can boost to 22-23 psi peak and hold around 18 to redline.
www.stealth316.com is a great site for tech stuff on turbos, although it is mostly geared towards 3000gt's/stealths.

[This message has been edited by RS VR-4 (edited 07-30-2002).]

00LE: I think they 2.8 is a little better than 65%

Luni and cpt, you need to look at how much air it flows and not just PSI. Also, you need to plot it across the board.

A worked 2.8 should do about 270CFM, that meas you want a turbo that can efficiently put out 450 if you want to run 10#s of boost.

A proper sized turbo should lag somewhat. No lag, no turbo.

Yes, and a stock mits. TD05 flows at 470cfm at 2 pr. http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05h-14g-cfm.gif

So what was your point?

That's on the outer edge @ 60-65% efficiency. If you're going through the time to pick out a turbo, why not pick one out where you're in the middle of the curve?

Especially since we're not running intercoolers!

Well, actually I did. I use a bigger turbo rated around 550cfm with some additional porting added on for my 3100. But, we are not talking about perfect optimization here on this thread, only weather the stock TD05's would be acceptable for use at around 10 psi boost (2.0 pr is around 12 psi) on a 2.8 V6, and they are.

Should also consider the fact that mits. owners swap to larger turbos frequently, and the low mileage stock turbos go up for sale, some for less than $200.

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 07-30-2002).]

Ok guys thanks. ill see if i can get a 14B somewhere.

iv seen 14B's go for as low as 50 bucks CDN....so hopefully we can find one at the junkyard. Also we might be able to get a Garrett T-3 or T-4

Don't quote me on this, BUT the Mitsu turbos are configured differently, which makes it very hard to fit the plumbing right. I can't remember if its the exhaust inlet thats above and not below like the Garrett. I find the info and post it.

yea dave i read that too...dont know if its true. the guy above said he has one on his 3100, so it must be possible

oh yea and dave im not on nights next week. But im finished work on Aug 16th i think

Should be able to bolt 95 3100 aluminum head exhaust manifolds onto the iron heads, just notch the manifold bolt holes and gaskets to fit. A $20 flange and a gasket is all the "pumbing" needed in this case. Will need a custom exhaust, but the stock exhaust is too small for a turbocharged motor anyway..
This places the turbo in the muffler area, which results in less of an increase in engine compartment heat, unclutered engine compartment, more room for intercooler or additional turbocharger, etc..

The 3100 manifolds and crossover are also completely enclosed in a nice wraparound aluminum heat shield, but I just do not know why anyone would ever want to get rid of those wonderful Fiero V6 exhaust manifolds.

Pic taken during 3100 SFI swap :

The flange needs to be bored just a bit to fit over the extruding tube on the manifold meant for the exhaust donut :

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 07-31-2002).]

Ok Shaun. What RPM does the Fiero v6 get peak torque at, and what is peak torque. My MR2 Turbo, with a CT26 on my 3SGTE 2.0 liter engine gets 200 hp/200 torque at 3200 RPM. The Eclipse gets even more than that, and you have the nerve to say NO TORQUE? Those engines have more torque than a stock fiero engine. Also displacement means NOTHING if you cant flow air. so your 2.8 liter is less efficient then my 2.0 liter and dont flow as much due to your the head, and youre going to tell me the Fiero needs more air than my engine? I seriously doubt it.

quote Originally posted by Luni420: Ok Shaun. What RPM does the Fiero v6 get peak torque at, and what is peak torque. My MR2 Turbo, with a CT26 on my 3SGTE 2.0 liter engine gets 200 hp/200 torque at 3200 RPM. The Eclipse gets even more than that, and you have the nerve to say NO TORQUE? Those engines have more torque than a stock fiero engine. Also displacement means NOTHING if you cant flow air. so your 2.8 liter is less efficient then my 2.0 liter and dont flow as much due to your the head, and youre going to tell me the Fiero needs more air than my engine? I seriously doubt it.

HAHA you dont' have 200 hp at 3200 rpm. its higher in the rpm band then that. But to answer your question its 165 @ 3600 rpm.

Also compare a N/A 2.0 engine like your mr2 to a fiero n/a 2.8. Which one makes more torque now? Ok thought so. Reason it makes 200 lb -ft is cause it has a turbo. Take it off and it is anemic. How many N/A mr2's were faster then a 2.8 fiero back when tested? I dont' think any were. Cause it didn't have the torque to get it off the line. Turbo a 2.8 fiero and it will have more then 200 lb-ft at the flywheel.

Compare apples to apples.

go ahead and keep believing that the t25 from a 2nd gen eclipse is way overkill for a fiero 2.8. i dare you to put one on a 2.8 fiero. It will makes gobs of torque till about 3500 rpm but then fall on its face. totally pointless

Everyone says that the fiero has good torque to get it off the line in n/a form. So why does everyone say you dont' want a larger turbo cause you will have lag and wont' get off the line fast. WTF happened to it getting off the line fast being n/a?? 0-30 in 2.3 seconds as tested back in the day. Pretty much the fastest of all production cars tested. After 30 it blows nuts. So get a turbo to help high rpm power not low rpm torque. My god man its like everyone thinks backwards here.

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Formula 5 spd

Shaun41178@hotmail.com

0-bj in .8 seconds

Some of the posts here want to compare two engines of different displacements having different volumetric efficencies to the end performance with a turbo.
Sorry to disappoint but there is no linear relationship between an engines boosted performance and needs for a specific size turbo to its normally aspirated VE values. Consider that an engines normally aspirated and boosted VE values will be totally different, once boost pressures are applied. A turbo will raise the volumetric efficiency to over 100% on just about any engine. The normally aspirated VE may have some bearing, but if's a totally different ball game when you apply boost pressure. Look at the cylinder volume. I say a small turbo that would feed a 2.0L efficiently would be lost feeding a 2.8L.
BTW what is the A/R rating of the turbo that you wish to use? That should provide a good indicator on whether or not it is suitable for a 2.8L.

If you do not even know something as elementary as the ar's of these turbo's you so readily criticize, then you really do not know what you are talking about, do you?
Funny how all equations I have seen to date use an engines normally aspirated VE as the primary factor in determining an appropriate turbo size.
The equations also indicate a linear relationship, so I guess they must all be wrong. How stupid of them to make such a mistake!

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 08-01-2002).]

quote Originally posted by 00lE: If you do not even know something as elementary as the ar's of these turbo's you so readily criticize, then you really do not know what you are talking about, do you? Funny how all equations I have seen to date use an engines normally aspirated VE as the primary factor in determining an appropriate turbo size. The equations also indicate a linear relationship, so I guess they must all be wrong. How stupid of them to make such a mistake! [This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 08-01-2002).]

The theroetical only tells so much.
You notice OOIE didn't use a turbo from a 2L engine on his 3100. If he did that probably accounts for his declining my invitation to race. The turbo off of the Talon just doesn't have enough air flow to support a 2.8L period.
If one is studying to be a professor then the minute details of the theoretical seem logical. Quite frankly I have no idea what this guy is talking about.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

quote Originally posted by Shaun41178: The 4G63 does outflow the Fiero engine but not at lower rpm which is why they make no torque. Full boost on a stock talon motor with a stock turbo is like 3500 rpm. With a fiero it would reach that much lower. And then be blowing nothing but hot air up top. Dude do you even know how to plot a compressor map? And this CT26 turbo. It flows 15 psi and runs out of breath at 5500 rpm but on what engine? I doubt you are talking about a fiero engine here. So if you are not then this turbo would have to be plotted for the 2.8. Also what compressor does this CT26 run? Got a flow map for one? The smallest mitsu turbo eh? Ok lets see how about the T-25 on the 2nd gen talons. Even all the talon owners say they are too small for a 2.0 liter engine and you think it would be "overkill" on a 2.8/3.1/3.4? HAHAHA whatever dude. You need to go back to school.

AMEN BRO... The T-25 turbo sucks a$$.. It runs out of steam on a 4g63 at only 250 or so HP... .And the 4g63 has less intake and runners to keep full of boost. Hell even the bigger 14b is to small... remember it flow that counts and the stock DSM turbos dont got it... Trust me... look at my sig!

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"Raced That, Wrecked Better"

~In Memory Of Jesse Cesek~ 1980-2000
Co-Founder Of ~ NEO Fiero Club (North East Ohio)
AOL IM: BoostedLoser
1985 GT ~ Purple, Fastback, Black and Yellow Interior, 4G63 Turbo DSM swap has BEGUN!!
1997 Mitsu Eclipse GSX ~ Maroon w/ Hella Balls!(GSX = AWD, Turbo) DOA on 12/10/2000
1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS ~ daily driven

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The theroetical only tells so much.

So lets just throw all theory away, I mean who really needs mathmatical modeling when they have such excellent specualtors here on this board.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: You notice OOIE didn't use a turbo from a 2L engine on his 3100. If he did that probably accounts for his declining my invitation to race.

Ya, like I am going to spend lots of money going cross country, then beat on a car I have thousands of dollars and 100's of hours of work into, just to show you who's better. Like I said, grow up little boy!

I have a better idea. Why dont you post some "verified" time slips, and valid dyno runs. (Then maybe you can use something rather than guestimated 0-60 numbers in your sig.) And perhaps some pics of this remarkable engine that boasts 300 hp on only 10psi of NON-intercooled boost (not just some of the amazing < $1k 2.8 project that blew up, forcing you to do it the right way)
You know, the engine that you bought that prom burner for last month, so that you could at least attempt to come up with a decent engine management system for a motor that miraculously pull's a 5.2 0-60 without one.

I am still working on the intercooler system for mine, but after that is completed, I will try to do the same. And we will see how things compare. Then maybe you can stop wasting our time with your childish crap and BS.

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 08-01-2002).]

HOLY ARGUMENTATIVE THREAD i started batman!

ok guys we will probably just get a t3/t4 turbo. they are alot bigger than the 14B or even 16G turbos. Hopefully we can find a late '80's Grand National in the yard...WINK WINK. Those are good up to like 30PSI....monsters they are!

thanks for ur help

PEACE

[This message has been edited by *cpt*seawolf (edited 08-01-2002).]

Man you find a GN in a boneyard i gotta know where this yard is! *wink*

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'88 Red SE (4.9 PFI in progress)
'99 Black Dodge Intrepid (daily driver)

there gotta be some GN's in a yard somewhere.... either that or ill find one...and run it off the road, and follow it to the junker

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Current DSM Fund:
$3082.38

[This message has been edited by *cpt*seawolf (edited 08-01-2002).]