Is it possilbe to do with the engine in the car on a 85 gt? what would it cost me to take it to a shop and have them swap heads if i give them another set or have them replace the broken bolts in the head, also 1 more ? if you can do it in the car is it hard or any helpful hints on how to?

Thanx
Randy

It is possible to change the heads while it is in the car. You'll want to remove the decklid, but I took off both heads in my 85 SE. I left the exhaust manifolds on since they are much easier to remove while they are off the car. Make sure to mark all the vacuum and coolant connections well. It is easier to do some of the stuff if you get in the truck. Also, a long breaker bar with 1/2 impact sockets is helpful for the head bolts.

dude it is way easer to chane them out of the car

Bummer........you can prob count on paying about $500 or so to have the heads replaced, depending on how hard the broken bolts are to remove.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: dude it is way easer to chane them out of the car

True, but unless you have a lift, it is easier to remove the heads in the car than it is to remove the engine.

It's not that hard of a job.. and I'm not even very good. Just did this on a 3.1 lumina, which I would say was harder than on the fiero. Leave the exhaust manifolds on, and unbolt them from the y-pipe. (4 bolts instead of 12). They are also much easier to get to. If you've never removed and installed the entire fuel injection system, make sure you have a buddy that has walk you through it the first time. Then after you do it a few times, you'll be posting tech info (learn one, do one, teach one).
Buy a torque wrench. Also, find a several foot length of steel tubing. I call mine "the persuader". Aluminum doesn't work well. Call me ghetto, but it works. Also, buy "fast orange" and band aids. You'll need those too. Head gaskets aren't exactly super cheap for these (about $20 each or $30 for the set). Another $20 or so for the intake gaskets. You'll also need new exhaust manifold gaskets. Replace little things like fuel injector o-rings. I just swapped out my auto for a 5-speed and when I did I replaced my exhaust manifold bolts with stainless. Some said it would work great, others said probably not. We'll see soon. Some mentioned problems of them backing out. I used some steel lockwashers behind the bolts. Hopefully that will help some too.
USE NEW HEAD BOLTS. These bolts are torque to yeild bolts, which mean they stetch when you torque them down. They are good for ONE use only. Most parts stores have these for about $20 for the set. Best of luck.

Very doable in the car. I assume the broken bolts you refer to, are exhaust manifold bolts. Much easier to extract these with the heads off the car (duh).

Tips I can think of right off: After removing all the bolts, couldn't get the head to come off. Sprayed Liquid Wrench along the block-to-head interface, then used a flat pry bar ("Wonderbar" or equivalent), with the "heel" of the prybar on the outer edge of a pair of lifter bosses, the "toe" of the pry bar on an as-cast surface of the head (under an intake port boss, if I recall). Pried carefully, and the head came right off.

While you have the heads off, it's a good opportunity to port the exhaust manifolds. I also lapped my valves - a nearly no-cost item, and time well spent, I think. My compression readings were extremely good, afterwards. This is a good time to install new valve stem seals, too.

If you happen to use a Fel-Pro head gasket, the side with the blue stripes goes up. I'm not endorsing Fel-Pro necessarily, just telling you what I learned.

When you reinstall the head bolts, don't forget to put sealant on their threads, because the holes in the block lead directly into the water jacket. I used Teflon pipe-sealing tape on mine, and it seems to be working well - no coolant leaks, and I'd like to think the Teflon will act as an antiseize. GM recommends some sort of sealer I didn't have at the time - if it makes you feel better, use that.

Some people have posted that you must use new head bolts when reinstalling a head. In the case of the 2.8, I don't happen to agree, and I have my reasons, which I won't go into here. But-! If it makes you feel better, do it. It can't hurt any, and it's pretty cheap insurance.

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Bummer........you can prob count on paying about $500 or so to have the heads replaced, depending on how hard the broken bolts are to remove. Phil

No what would the cost be if i gave them a set of good heads with no broken bolts to tap out, so basically kust have them take out old heads and put new ones in?

Thanx
Randy

I just got done doing this last week. Like you, I had broken exhaust bolts and a cracked manifold. So I thought it would be easier to just pull the head than to monkey around trying to get the manifold off. It's a good thing that I did because I had a cracked head.

Really, it's a pretty straight forward process. The hardest part for me was either getting the rear head (front side) positioned without scarring the gasket or just getting the dipstick tube down to the oil pan.

If you have all the right tools (torque wrench, full metric wrench/socket sets, extensions, etc) and a garage to work in, I'd say it shouldn't take you more than 16 hours to finish. But if you're not very comfortable with tearing it apart yourself, you might want to go ahead and give it to a shop. I'm sure they could do it faster, but I don't know what it would cost you. My cost, not including the price of new heads, was about $170 for new gaskets, new head bolts, sealants, spark plugs, wires and new sensors.

The biggest tip I can give is to keep all your bolts and small parts on labeled plastic bags. I had seperate bags for each major piece of the engine (upper intake, middle intake, fuel rail, lower intake, etc). Make sure you keep track of every part you take off. I somehow lost my temp sender and had to go buy a new one.

Other than that, do what everyone else has suggested in previous posts. Good luck.

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~~~Jim~~~
'84 4:10, Citation 2.8L (scary, eh?)
'86 SE Auto
'98 Regal GS (3800SC)
'68 Mustang Coupe (restoration phase)

[This message has been edited by UpOnRamps (edited 07-15-2002).]

quote Originally posted by 85 gt fiero: No what would the cost be if i gave them a set of good heads with no broken bolts to tap out, so basically kust have them take out old heads and put new ones in? Thanx Randy

Randy.....unfortunately....that is the price I gave you...labor and gaskets basically.......sorry.

Phil

quote Originally posted by UpOnRamps: I just got done doing this last week. Like you, I had broken exhaust bolts and a cracked manifold. So I thought it would be easier to just pull the head than to monkey around trying to get the manifold off. It's a good thing that I did because I had a cracked head. Really, it's a pretty straight forward process. The hardest part for me was either getting the rear head (front side) positioned without scarring the gasket or just getting the dipstick tube down to the oil pan. If you have all the right tools (torque wrench, full metric wrench/socket sets, extensions, etc) and a garage to work in, I'd say it shouldn't take you more than 16 hours to finish. But if you're not very comfortable with tearing it apart yourself, you might want to go ahead and give it to a shop. I'm sure they could do it faster, but I don't know what it would cost you. My cost, not including the price of new heads, was about $170 for new gaskets, new head bolts, sealants, spark plugs, wires and new sensors. The biggest tip I can give is to keep all your bolts and small parts on labeled plastic bags. I had seperate bags for each major piece of the engine (upper intake, middle intake, fuel rail, lower intake, etc). Make sure you keep track of every part you take off. I somehow lost my temp sender and had to go buy a new one. Other than that, do what everyone else has suggested in previous posts. Good luck.

Thanx, that was what i wanted to hear

GTDUDE: Thanx, i think ill do it my self then.
1 more ? when i take the heads of do i do anything to the timing chain or cam? I know its a dumb ? i never done this before.

Thanx
Randy

well i did it with out a lift i hust used a engine hoist and i un bolted the deck lid latch and uesed the bolts from that to hook up the chain all i am saying it would be easer but it is up to u

Nope.....timing chain etc not effected by the head removal. Keep your rockers and pushrods in order. I just use a cardboard box and use the pushrods to poke holes in it, then put the rocker over the pushrod. Be sure to mark front/rear or # each pushrod.

Phil

Make sure you make a mark on both the distributor and the block so you can put the distributor back in correctly. Also remove the cap and mark the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor base.

Another thing I did was once I had the heads off I put the distributor back in and rotated the engine until the #1 piston was in the upmost point and the distributor rotor was pointing to the #1 plug. This way I knew I was already at #1 TDC before even reassembling. Once at this postion I had to remark the rotor position. I thought this was easier than finding TDC after assembly. Worked great.

My biggest worry through the whole deal was getting the valve lash correct. I'm sure you've read to forget the 1.5 turns after initial resistance is felt. Remember, initial resistance means it is a little "sticky" to turn, it doesn't mean it won't turn at all. I ended up somewhere around 3/4 turn. I haven't heard any ticks or knocks, so it worked well for me. Some people say 1 turn, some say 1/2 turn, so I split the difference. I think GTDude says you should see about two threads sticking up about the rocker nut, but I saw almost three.
Also, don't go back and readjust them because the lifters will collapse a little and the pushrods will feel loose, but they will be fine when they pump back up.

My pistons had some carbon on them. I just used carb cleaner and a scotch brite pad on them. I didn't get it completely clean, but mostly. Get some gasket remover from the parts store, it really helps to clean the old head gasket material off.

Can't think of anything else right now, but I probably will later. Keep us informed of your progress.

Jim

Whenever I remove a set of used heads, they go directly to a machine shop. At a minimum I have them cleaned, valve stem seals replaced, an economy (or preferably better) valve grind, and a resurface. If there is any doubt as to the integrity of the head, I also have them magnefluxed to check for any hairline cracks that could cause a future disaster.
A brand new head is always preferably.

If there was a significant amount of coolant found in any of the cylinders, you may as well pull the engine and rebuild it anyway, as the ring seating is probably already FOBAR (ie. glazed wall) and it will quite likely be blowing smoke within a few hundred miles once the weak cylinders compression has been restored.

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 07-16-2002).]

Is it really difficult to take the pushrods out? or the rockers, im getting different heads so i dont ned those any more, i dont want to get everything off only to find out im in too far over my head and am stuck with a pile of parts, whats the hardest part of replacing them, the f/i system, or?

Thanx
randy

You will need to obtain some type of repair manual before you even think of doing this yourself. I would highly recommend a Helms shop manual, but you might get by with something a bit cheaper.
Cleaning and preparation of the gasket surfaces is probably the most difficult and time consuming task involved. I would not advise replacing worn pushrods unless you intend to replace the lifters too, and these components should always be replaced with new, not used parts. Doing otherwise is just asking for trouble. If you reuse the original pushrods, do not get them mixed up so that they are not replaced in the exact same position they were initially.

[This message has been edited by 00lE (edited 07-16-2002).]

I followed a Chilton's manual and it worked out fine for me. If you don't have one yet, go pick up a Chilton's or Hayne's. Helms are a bit expensive, but much better.

Taking push rods out is real easy. Simply loosen the rocker retaining nut until it is loose enough to slide the pushrod out. The rods are just held in by pressure between the lifter and rocker.

I reused my pushrods but installed different rockers. Keep all your pushrods in order and you shouldn't have a problem. While you have them out, make sure the oil passages are good and clean.

If you take your time and really pay attention to how things come apart, and thus go together, you shouldn't get over your head.