Very excited about the idea of this engine. Looking for lots of information on it. Where can I get one, how much does it cost(can I buy a new one) and what kind of work am I looking at to convert from a 2.5 to the Rover v-8?
It began in 62 as a Buick / olds aluminum v8 , also came in turbo configuration.
The engien was sold to british Lelyand in 1967 and used in rovers. Went from 3.5Ltrs to current 4.6ltr configuration.
The engine weighs 320Lbs complete carb to pan. It can be bored and stroked to 5.0ltrs with the use of a buick 300 crank.
Built right it wil provide a very progressive powerband from 2000 to 7000 rpm.
They are expensive motors to build , We have a 4.0ltr version int he back of a corvair. TRW forged pistons , balanced ,ported , polished , bigger chevy rods , you name it , it's been done. but all at a hefty price. I also have a buick 3.5ltr version sitting ont he garage floor.
The starter is on the wrong side , this can be swapped with some machine work. There is a guy on the Corvair list putting a Fiero Cradle int he back of his vair , along with a getrag mated to a Rover (olds) v8
Like I said , there expensive to get power from , but there lighter than a 2.8 by 40Lbs.
There Not expensive , but the issue isn't finding one , the issue is parts to make it a hi HP motor. Your gonna pay big bucks for a rover version. I would look for a B.O.P before a rover 4.6 (buick , olds , pontiac)
I have thought of putting it into my Fiero many times. But there are so many other options out there , that have been pioneered , why not take the easy road?
JM
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04:40 PM
The Aura Member
Posts: 2290 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Registered: Nov 2001
Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: Good lord , your all over the map.
I would look for a B.O.P before a rover 4.6 (buick , olds , pontiac)
I have thought of putting it into my Fiero many times. But there are so many other options out there , that have been pioneered , why not take the easy road?
JM
All over the map? I believe you're refering to my many topics? I'm very inquisitive and have lots to catch up on and I know little about cars in the first place, so, there's lots to be learned. And what do you mean by a B.O.P? And about how much money am I looking at to convert it?
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04:49 PM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
BOP ..: buick , Olds , Pontiac all offered the engine in various forms. The Olds motor was strongest , but the buick had more Hp. I know very little of the Pontiac version.
the big issue is the fact that it does not bolt up to the Fiero tranny. You will need an adaptor
He sells adaptors for everything , including the one we use in our corvair.
How much money? hard to say. hobart from Kennedy recently quoted me $450 for an adaptor for an unrelated project involving a 215 bop motor.
If you have little of no automotive experience , or fabrication skills (ie welder) I would skip this conversion. I have the motor , I have the car , all the tools and I don't think I would tackle it. It's more expensive to get power from a bop motor than a 350 , a lot more expensive. For the machine work we have in the motor you could buy a GM crate motor.
JM
[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 05-14-2002).]
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04:58 PM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Originally posted by Morphine: Yes, originality would make mine quite the spectacle. I think many people would be interested in hearing about it.
Yep I'm definitely interested in knowing more about the feasability of this conversion. Obviously here in the UK its far easier to obtain a Rover V8 than any other kind and they are used for a large range of vehicles Land Rovers-TVR's with readily available parts/upgrades etc.
If you want to see more info on Rover V8's it might be worth checking www.rover-v8.co.uk
is the 215-v8 a B-O-P and C pattern or just before that idea hit GM in about 65 B-O-P and sometimes C was mostly for th-350 and 400 3 sp auto tran's so all used a common bellhousing bolt pattern except for chevy who was different my 70 buick sportwagon's 400GS motor used a different Dinoglide pattern so not all were B-O-P even in 70!!!!
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
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09:44 PM
cadero2dmax Member
Posts: 1266 From: Brighton, CO Registered: Oct 2001
There is a tube-framed, Rover powered Fiero that is a 5 time National Champion in SCCA Solo II (E- Mod). It was built and driven by the Tamandli brothers from South Bend, Indiana.
I don't know much about this little aluminum V8 except it hauls in that 1600 lb car!!
G
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10:53 PM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
the car Cadero is talking about only looks like a Fiero.
I believe the Chassis is a Forumula Car. (little indy car) Mr. Tamandili has dominated SCCA EM in it for a Number of years.
The car runs a longitudinal , mid mounted Rover V8 ( I actuallybelieve it's a buick engine) It is mated to a pricey Hewland Gearbox.
The car has Fieor body panels affixed toit. from 100 ft it looks like a Fiero ,the closer you get the more you realize the only thing Fiero on it is the body.
It is not even close to being streetable , weighs probably 1600LBs and has 300+hp
Purpose built racecar. ( I would love to buy it)
JM
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12:06 AM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Someone PM'd me recently about an older post where I mentioned this motor and how great it would be in a Fiero-we traded a few emails and he send me a list of web sites with info on the motor, trust me when I say this person did some serious surfing and the list of web pages was LOOOONG! lol Lots of info out there on the motor and what to do to it. I think it would be an ideal motor for the Fiero and I'd be MORE than happy to make any adapterplate for a swap for $450 us-thats just crazy(material wouldn't cost $100!)! Does anyone have a dimensioned drawing of the bellhousing of the rover? I'll try to find the email and post it here, he's done some research so you might want to talk to him.
I say go for it-might be some fooling around and some serious elbow grease but it would definatly be worth it! I have too many projects on the go myself but I did see a complete motor up here for $600 cnd and that had all the brackets and acces etc.
My Dad still has at least 3 or 4 of the Aluminum 215s sitting in our shop. He had originally planned a Fiero-based swap, but never went anywhere with it (he's now starting a 4.9L Caddy swap). In any case, he say's I can sell 'em for cheap if anyone wants to come to Minnesota and pick one up!
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11:54 AM
1FST2M6 Member
Posts: 3905 From: Dallas, GA. Registered: Jan 2000
If you can find an e-mail address for this guy or any other info please let me know.
Cheers PK
quote
Originally posted by 85GToronto: Someone PM'd me recently about an older post where I mentioned this motor and how great it would be in a Fiero-we traded a few emails and he send me a list of web sites with info on the motor, trust me when I say this person did some serious surfing and the list of web pages was LOOOONG! lol Lots of info out there on the motor and what to do to it. I think it would be an ideal motor for the Fiero and I'd be MORE than happy to make any adapterplate for a swap for $450 us-thats just crazy(material wouldn't cost $100!)! Does anyone have a dimensioned drawing of the bellhousing of the rover? I'll try to find the email and post it here, he's done some research so you might want to talk to him.
I say go for it-might be some fooling around and some serious elbow grease but it would definatly be worth it! I have too many projects on the go myself but I did see a complete motor up here for $600 cnd and that had all the brackets and acces etc.
Cheers....
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03:33 PM
lowCG Member
Posts: 1510 From: seattle,WA U.S.A. Registered: Jun 99
I've had a '63 4bbl Buick motor sitting around for a couple years now,and am very willing to sell it.It's complete right down to the oem carb.,has been rebuilt with 30K on it now.Also comes with an additional motor that's apart. Email me kristensjohn@email.com if you want to discuss it further.
THAT buick powered the winning the F-1 drivers and constructors championship in 66 and 67, basic block did anyway with repco custom built guts and heads [sohc 2v] repco still makes heads s+dohc 2 or 4 valve
motor was allso used in olds F--85 but not in a pontiac tempest had 326 iron block
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10:01 PM
May 16th, 2002
85GToronto Member
Posts: 927 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2001
I found the email PK and I have his email address but not his Pennocks name, I'll email him and tell him to check this thread out and PM you.
Here are the web sites for anyone who has some time on their hands-hehe Sorry for the long list but it might be a good resource for next time someone is searching for Rover V8 Fiero swap info. And thanks to Jim for doing all the legwork on this one
Thanks very much for that. The list is amazing. A few look familiar but thats about it...could take me some time! Might as well start now. If the creator of this web list does read this thread then I would be very interested in contacting them.
Cheers PK
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05:24 PM
PFF
System Bot
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Yeah, I've already been through a 1/3 of the thread since yesturday (have alot of time on my hands) alot of the sites are really basic, not alot of good info, but a few of the sites really excite me about the possibility of the swap. The more I research the more and more I'm thinking that I'm gonna go ahead with the swap. The advantages would be F#*kin' awesome!! Yeah, elbow grease and some patients and cash but I think well worth it. On the other side of things I've read somewhere that weight on the ass end of the Fiero is actually a plus where as in front engine cars the weight is a minus due to taking weight off the rear tires. I know that a 3.5l Rover weighs about 305 lbs....my understanding is just alittle over the 4-cle and just under the 6. But they also make adaptors that'll boost the Rover's up to a 4.2 or even a 5.0l!!! A little heavier but still in the 300 range. I guess the question is, at what point is the weight a disadvantage? Whether it be not enough or to much....hmm? Lots to think about. Then there's the factor of making your car lighter in the first place. Mine weighs 2,310 lbs....probably 2,445 with me in the car (I weigh 135) I put it on some scales today. I'm sure you could get the car under 2000 with out really tearing it apart.....of coarse that's just a totally off the wall guess. I havn't researched this at all. Well, there's my 2 cents.....
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06:19 PM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
....in here you will read about how to convert from a 3.5 to a 4.2 or 5.0 and how to do it. Some how (I don't really understand; my knowledge is very limited) you can get a 5.0L with a 215 short block "all Aluminum V-8 that weighs about 310 lbs fully dressed" -Paul Hartlieb by using the crank and heads from a 64 Buick 300. I'm not sure if it is limited to this or not. 2 more cents....I'm saving up to get a quarter. =) j/k
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06:29 PM
May 17th, 2002
85GToronto Member
Posts: 927 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2001
Hey, sorry guys, work got in the way of my surfing yesterday(I hate that-lol) and I forgot to email the guy who made that list. I'll do it right now and alert him to read this thread. I talked at length to someone about this motor once(he's in a Triumph club) and he stated its quite easy to get this motor into the 300-350HP range. Lighter than the Duke with 300+ HP.....ummmm........'NUFF SAID!!!!
Cheers....
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10:22 AM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Originally posted by 85GToronto: he stated its quite easy to get this motor into the 300-350HP range. Lighter than the Duke with 300+ HP.....ummmm........'NUFF SAID!!!!
Cheers....
....But would that be street legal? I've seen a Jaquar with a 4.4 alminum v-8 with 420 HP. But it was a race care for Super Cheat Auto....
Hi All, I saw a post earlier mentioning the Rover V-8, I contacted 85GTronto for more information and discovered the B.O.P. or 215 V8. In Fact every Pennock post on the Rovcer V8 is in the research posted. I did a little digging and talked off line to a few people who expressed an interest in this swap. If you want to discuss this feel free to PM or use regular email. To begin with this engine swap has plus and negative points. Every swap does, if you are going to do a swap educate yourself and see if the plus out weighs the negative. Everybody has different levels of acceptance of this fact. For everybody to play nice we all need to accept that fact. Okay, the 215 is old technology over 40 years old, big deal get over it. In fact most of the junkyard parts needed are 30 to 40 years old to make these go fast. Those that have escaped the crusher are pretty much in the sellers hands. You still can find parts but you will pay a commanding price, or you will go to a lot of flea markets. The other parts source is outside the US of A. Import Duties are all figured in when you pay for British parts. So much for the Bad now for the good. It is old technology that makes more horse power naturally asperated than my 87 GT 2.8 V6 that is computer controlled, and it weighs less than my V6. Lets see Weighs Less, smaller, more horse power, it can be built many different ways, has a racing heritage, and long range project buildable in Steps. With proper planning the same engine that was installed with a cam and 4 barrel can have a turbo or two added later, if you had to have your computer controlled fuel injection that option is available for $730.00 complete with controller and everything needed. For me this engine makes sense, and it still weighs less than a 4.9 Caddy. Sorry Cadero owners couldn't resist. I do agree with them the 4.9 is a good choice for a swap, it also weighs less than the high end weight of the 2.8. But the starter is on the wrong side and you need an adapter, and you have to make motor mounts. Well all these proplems are dealt with by every body who does a swap. I haven't got a motor yet, but whym even move the starter? In my opinion this engine's plus's out weigh the negatives. I was intending to quietly go about this swap and drop it fully documented on the forum. So far all I have got done is just the beginning research, and it appears promising. I have rounded up some parts I need to put my 84 SE project/parts car back in shape to receive an engine. I know where to get an engine to play with, but I really need to clear up at least one project first. Okay time to get off my soap box. Feel free to discuss this project with me if you wish, but I believe in playing nice. Jim
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11:51 AM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
I'm completely on "fix er ups" side. I'm at the same point. I've done a quite a bit of research as well that also makes me feel that this swap is possible. I believe I've made that quite clear in some of my previous replys. Anyways...that's all I've got to say.
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12:09 PM
85GToronto Member
Posts: 927 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2001
I have wayyyyy too many projects on the go to even think about this at the moment but it still interests me alot. Has anyone found a drawing of the bellhousing dim's???(mainly dowels to crank center) If someone can give me those I can draw up an adapter in CAD suitable to pass on to a CNC fabricator. Might make that cheaper since programming the machines myself I know exactly what they looks for. Let me know......
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01:17 PM
May 18th, 2002
PK Member
Posts: 1249 From: Oxford, England Registered: Sep 2001
Sounds like you guys are ahead of me on the research. I'll get my head down this weekend and see if I can catch up!
Since I'm over t'other side of the pond here in Blighty I will do all I can to help out with sourcing parts etc if you need.
There are plenty of engineering companies over here that specialise in Rover V8's, up to 5.2 conversions, twin turbo etc etc, so getting advice on the engine should not be a problem...85GToronto, thats a really kind offer about the CAD work. I'll try and get some info on the bellhousing and let you know. Of course the other guys may already have this info if they have been through all of those web links!!!
Cheers PK
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03:05 AM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Thanks for the support PK. I currently know of a guy with 4 of these engines, in running condition, already out of their donner cars, that is willing to sale them pretty cheap. One's the Olds which is more suitable for higher HP and has the 5 bolt pattern setup that is easier for conversion.I called him and he quoted me at $200!!! Of coarse this doesn't include getting it from Minnesota to California but atleast he offered to ship it to me UPS in parts. Pretty damn good deal if you ask me. I'm not sure what model the other three are. For the most part I'm sold on this engine. Especially with the research I've done and the price at which I can get this particular engine for.
Back to the subject at hand let's try and get alittle more technical with this thread guys. Being that I've got 4 days experience with "car talk," there's alot I don't know. I mean, I wish I could help steer this thread in a more technical direction but, just because I've done the research doesn't mean I can explain it to anyone. There's to many implications that I know I'm overlooking so I'm in need of alittle help here guys.
How about this...Let's discuss two issues.
1.) How to get a 215 up to a 5.2L and above the 350HP 400ft. lbs. torque range. and the problems with getting it that high?
2.) Once the engine is that size, how are you going to get it into the Fiero engine compartment?
-When it comes to installing it I know of 3 minor problems with easy solutions. But I'm afraid to try and explain it for fear of sounding like or even possibly really be talking out of my ass. But here it goes anyways....
----------- LOL -----------
uh......
1.)The 5 bolt engine mounts don't match up so they need an adaptor which they already make that is supposed to make the Olds 215 compatible with our Fieros. I'm not sure about the Buick or Pontiac versions. They're different bolt patterns. I think 4 or something like that.
2.)The starter thingy is like on the left hand side or something which is the wrong side. Supposedly it's supposed to be pretty easy to shave off, add an engine brace there, and weld the starter to the other side. (my dad's got 17 years sheet metal) No problem finding some one to weld Aluminum.
3.)Then I'm almost positive the 3rd minor problem is the ligning up of the engine with the tranny which you solve by taking a piece of aluminum, Draw out the circle on your tranny, draw out the circle on your engine, do some other Geometry stuff to get a cone that lines them up and VOILA, weld it in place. Luckily for me my brother works for a Metal Roofing and Siding place and does all the geometrical configurating and building of all the technical metal roofing stuff. Should be a sinch for him.
Other than that, I don't know sh%t and this?...I'm merely re-stating what I've been told. So please!! Correct me if I'm wrong. I want it.
Morphine
------------------ "The key to comprehension: That which is complex you break down simply and that which is simple you understand complexily creating an ever ending cycle of comprehension." -Skinner
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06:46 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Will: # 1 & 3 are the same. Your adapter plate will perform both tasks.
Rover has done two redesigns of this engine. Will the European Rover aftermarket parts fit the original Olds/Buick block?
What domestic parts are available?
I know next to nothing about this particular engine, but these are the types of questions you need to ask.
Problems:
Parts are not cheap , but you don't want to see the shipping bill for a set of big valve heads from Europe to North America , it will make you cry.
The olds motor is NOT the best for Hi HP application , the buick "nailhead" version has a hemispherical head design. (thus rover still uses the nailhead inspired design) Our corvair runs the olds heads. The motor shares a lot of architecture with a Buick 3.8 V6 (not series 2) The headers on our corvair are buick 3.8 units with an extra pipe added. But I can tell you the heavier buick 300 manifolds flow just as well (we wanted to keep the aded weight off the car)
You will need a buick 300 crank to make big cubes. But you also need to keep in mind what you want the motor for. Our V8 corvair weighs a good 400 Lbs less than a Fiero. It doesn't have the off idle tq of a larger displacement bop V8 , but with the short storke it makes for a nice linear powerband. I personally want low end Grunt in a Fiero.
Just keep in mind , the newer the engine you get the better off you are. Why backdate? I know there is an issue of simplicity involved , but I would rather have a built 4.6 rover motor that is injected than a 63 215 with a carb. 2 different schools of thought
We can bench race this to death. It sounds super easy on paper , until you try it. I am going to track down the guy on the Corvair list who is actually mating the 215 to a Getrag from a Fiero and see what he says.
I have seen a TPI unit adapted to a 5.0ltr BOp engine , in a super 7 (scary scary scary) So anything can be done.
Just don't believe everything you read. There is a Reason JE engineering (probably the finest 215 specailist on the planet) sells its 300hp/330ftlbs engine for nearly 6000 Pounds + shipping.
Don't expect to make big power from junk yard parts and hoopla. We have used these engines for 20 years + in Corvairs. Many many hours and dollars go into building them , tuning them..ect..ect.
Just trying to bring the thread back to some sane thought . 350hp with no force induction is BS.
JM
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12:30 PM
Morphine Member
Posts: 54 From: Redding, CA, USA Registered: May 2002
Thanks for the input Will. As for as parts go I've done alittle research in that dipartment as well and came across a company who supposedly sells kits and engine parts. The guy who wrote the 7 page document containning lots of needy info on the 215 was basically saleing the idea of people using the engine still and says:
"Anybody who is interested in 215's should contact Dan LaGrou for parts. D&D Performance sells adapters to mate later Hydramatic transmissions to the 215, if you rework the floor to make room for the larger cases. There's also a guy in Utah who sells kits to swap the motor into early RX-7's." -Paul Hartlieb
I'm not quite sure what parts they sale and how good/reliable of a company they are but I'm starting to research them now.
As far as currently built parts by company's such as Rover being compatible with the 215's I'm not quite sure. I would tend to think so since they're essentially the same exact engine. For those of you who don't know GM sold the rights for the motor around '63 to the British Leyland company (Rover/Jaguar/Triumph) and evolved from there into the 3.5,3.9 and 4.2 litre engines. From there it was redesigned from an investment casting to a sand cast aluminum block that made it less prone to cracking (but slightly heavier) and better at vibration dampening.
Supposedly, "The basic dimensions stayed the same:bore, stroke, bearing sizes, distance between bores, etc. 215 manifolds still fit the 3.5L blocks as do all of the original 215 aftermarket upgrades." -Hartlieb
SO.....I would tend to think that to get your 215 up to a 5.0L, twin turbo, with 4-valve DOHC heads and alot of other goodies isn't as hard as people think. Maybe just alittle expensive.
------------------ "The key to comprehension: That which is complex you break down simply and that which is simple you understand complexily creating an ever ending cycle of comprehension." -Skinner
I don't want to crap in your corn flakes , but at the start of the thread you didn't know what BOP meant , and now your building twin turbo variants with multivalve heads???
The motor rights were sold in 67. It was designed by Bill mitchell , I have talked to his son a few times whom is kicking around the internet , but Im sure wouldn't have time for this (busy Guy) I talked to him around 2 years ago about a 215 in a Fiero.. Anyway i think at this point I am wasting my breath.
I can tell you this though. Machine work on the heads , block , ect , ect to build an engine that is pushing 275hp was $3500 US. All custom parts ,Custom oiling, you name it , it was done. this excludes the cost of the expensive internals.
All I can say is good luck.
JM
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01:34 PM
PK Member
Posts: 1249 From: Oxford, England Registered: Sep 2001
Slammed Fiero, I apologize if I sound like I'm comming accross as if I were ready to take on the project myself and anytime soon. That's not the case at all. I completely respect your knowledge, and trust me...I'm not going to do anything stupid like taking on a complicated project like this with no experience. And you're right. At the begging of this thread I didn't know what a BOP motor was and now I do. Thanks to this thread I'm learning way more, alot faster, and with alot more inspiration. The idea of this swap has merely got my interest and with plenty of support (my father's 17 years welding experienc, my Brother's 5 years experience with metal roofing which consists of lot's of geometrical fittings, and a Mechanic friend of mine that builds full-scale Outlaws for racing, and plenty of discussions with people who know what they're talking about on the Forum) in a couple of years at an extremely slow pace, with lots of patients I could pull it off and right. But who knows!!!! Maybe by that time I'll have gainned enough knowledge to really know what I was trying to take on and scrap the whole idea all together. But, in the meantime man....
---------Let me be inspired to learn-------
Other than that....your info has been great and greatly appreciated.
signing off, Morphine
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04:39 PM
May 31st, 2002
85GToronto Member
Posts: 927 From: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2001
I frequently drive past a place that has a bunch of old Land Rovers and such, I think they work on import cars of many types. Anyhow I stopped yesterday just to take a peek and got talking to the owner. He has 3 of these motor's complete which he would sell for around $1500 cnd each. I am assuming that is with the FI setup which I wouldn't want so could be a tad cheaper. I'm going to hold back on buying any more SBC parts since this really peaks my interest. The motors are relatively new(mid 80's) I'm thinking make an adapterplate, buy a carb and intake and see what it will do! Mods can be done later. He did also confirm that the motor weighs aprox 330 lbs. And he thinks that vintage made nearly 200 HP.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm................
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03:10 PM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7569 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
