The cave talks about the do it yourself Retro-fit kits for R134a and does not recommend them, but I was wondering if anyone has actually tried it, and what were the results?

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1988 Coupe
Fiero - It's like an Actual Miniature Car

2 years ago and its still cold air...didn't know about the cave then and I knew there was no way I was going to fool with R-12 anymore so I gave it a shot...glad I did..

I personally used Freeze-12, 2 years and no problems. I've tried the 134 conversions and wasn't very pleased with them. I'm going to try it again on my Blazer but I'm going to use an aftermarket condenser made for 134 conversions.

quote Originally posted by afRaceR: I personally used Freeze-12, 2 years and no problems.

What is Freeze-12? I've never heard of that.

I've done plenty since they first came out, no problems.

I just successfully done a 1977 Lincoln but I had to replace the dryer too. Guess it had a little age on it.

Since the topic has been brought up, allow me to ask this:

I have an 85 GT setting since 92, and am working on it (restore of sorts) and want to put a/c in it what do I need to replace or upgrade to go with R134a?

:edit:
I think I have just found my answer in this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/022207.html

went to the link, and found this info: http://www.epa.gov/docs/ozone/title6/609/oneshop.html

hopefully all my questions are answered.

[This message has been edited by Gold-86SE (edited 05-14-2002).]

Freeze-12 is very similar to R-12, its about $12 a can compared to R-12 at what $25-30 a can. No special conversion kit or anything is needed and uses the same oil. FYI, the last time I bought R-134 it was about $3 a can.

As far as going with R-134, I've never had very good luck with it. They are now making larger condensors to convert cars over to R-134 which are "supposed" to make the conversion much better. This is why some cars do ok and some don't, it has to do with the size of the condensor. The ones I have priced are about $175 to $250.

My 87GT R-134A conversion blows ICE COLD AIR even on the hottest days. Do an R-134A conversion the right way and you'll hardly feel the difference. . Be sure to change the accumulator and all of the O rings, evacuate the system, add 8 oz Ester oil and charge with about three cans of R-134A or to a low side pressure of between 25 and 43 PSI (varies w temp.). The stock Fiero condenser will work perfectly fine

Dennis,

Since it's that time of year again, maybe you could post your list of o-rings again... I remember you being one of the few that had found all of them. Also, what sizes, or if there is a complete set available out there.

Thanks

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: ... and you'll hardly feel the difference...

Do you mean when you are stopped in traffic and you notice the air conditioning blowing hot air? I don't know about you, but in mid-day Texas heat, this isn't acceptable.

This is where my problem with every 134 conversion I have done or seen. This is why the new design condensors are needed. Don't believe me? Go look at any car with factory 134 AC, notice how much thicker and bigger the condensor is compared to some on R-12 systems?

This is just my experience with Texas heat and how I really hate sweeting my balls off stuck in rush hour traffic.

quote Originally posted by afRaceR: Do you mean when you are stopped in traffic and you notice the air conditioning blowing hot air? I don't know about you, but in mid-day Texas heat, this isn't acceptable. This is where my problem with every 134 conversion I have done or seen. This is why the new design condensors are needed. Don't believe me? Go look at any car with factory 134 AC, notice how much thicker and bigger the condensor is compared to some on R-12 systems? This is just my experience with Texas heat and how I really hate sweeting my balls off stuck in rush hour traffic.

Changing the condenser to a more efficient design will undoubtedly increase efficiency of an R-134A retrofit. Yes I agree that would give the best result. However, even at at idle my system still blows 40* air. For an R-134A retrofit to work properly, the low side pressure switch on the accumulator MUST be recalibrated. Otherwise your compressor will not cycle long enough for proper cooling. The recalibration is done by adjusting the screw between the terminals on the pressure switch. If you want the procedure I can post it. As for Texas heat; that may have some effect but I can imagine that you'll have no A/C output even with a standard R-134A retrofit.
As for the O rings kit sizes, let me dig into my notes and post the numbers.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

ill stick with system that comes in car. I switched 2 Lincoln limos with dual (front & rear) ac to 134 by a pro ac shop. They never worked very well. Had client wondering if my ac worked when it was on, not a good thing.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: For an R-134A retrofit to work properly, the low side pressure switch on the accumulator MUST be recalibrated.

Ok ........I'm curiuos, how does adjusting the low pressure switch help the system cool when the compressor never cycles. I've bypassed the switch before and still no differance at idle.

Switched both my '88 GT and '95 Grand Prix 3 years ago, no problem, and still cold.

When I read these posts about an R-134A conversion that does not work well, I can only assume that the conversions were done by inexperienced, disinterested or inept service personnel.
If I can get my A/C to blow 40* air at idle and 36* air at highway speeds I must assume that anyone could. As for the question about the compressor cycling switch; it must be re-adjusted to come on at a lower pressure than it did for R-12. This is done after the system is recharged. You want a setting between 19 and 21 PSI.
It's very possible to do an R-134A conversion in a Fiero with excellent results without changing the condenser. When I did my conversion I installed a new compressor the year before and ran R-12. The following year the R-12 leaked out becuase the O rings on the compressor pressure switches were leaking. I didn't want to use my R-12 reserve and tried the R-134A conversion. I changed the accumulator, orifice tube, all of the O rings, evacuated the system and charged it with almost three full cans of R-134A. Believe me you can still freeze your b*lls off with my R-134A system. Will it be as cold as it was with R-12?--NO. Will your Fiero be comfortable on the hottest days with R-134A- YES it will.
IF YOUR COMPRESSOR IS SOUND, IF YOUR SYSTEM IS EVACUATED AND CHARGED PROPERLY, IF THE O RINGS, THE ACCUMULATOR AND THE ORIFICE TUBE ARE REPLACED AND THE COMPRESSOR CYCLING SWITCH IS READJUSTED YOUR SYSTEM WILL WORK WELL. Don't expect good results if you are trying to use your tired 17 year old compressor put in R-134A and expect it to work. Using a very old compressor may or may not provide good cooling efficiency. R-134A is about 300x thinner than R-12 so your system has to be in perfect working order before a conversion is attempted. Those cheasy cheap R-134A conversion kits that offer a "least cost" conversion may work if you get lucky but the right way usually gives good results.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm

ya, but after you spend all that money and time, it would have been cheaper to use the old $59 @ pound R-12

Inept? Inexperienced? Not hardly. I'm an ASE certified mechanic and I have been working on cars for about 15 years - I'm 25 now. My dad's an ASE certified master mechanic, 55 years old with over 40 years of automotive experience. He's never been real happy with the conversions he's done/seen either.

Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. For the most part, To do a 134 conversion correctly you have to replace and upgrade the whole system to work even remotely how it did before the conversion. You have to understand, I work in a shop. If a customer wants to upgrade their system and doesn't want to pay alot of money for it, there's nothing I can do. I have no expectations about that system - I guess they don't either. This is why I am pretty faithless in 134 conversions. This is why I always try to talk these customers into Freeze-12 upgrades. Because they get mad when the system doesn't work and noone is happy.

I'll go back to my original statement, just use Freeze-12. No hassles, no upgrading or replacing. And its relatively cheap.

Dennis: You should contact the Ogre and give him that conversion procedure so he can add it to his cave.

Where can you find Freeze 12?

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Will your Fiero be comfortable on the hottest days with R-134A- YES it will.

I'm sure you are a great mechanic, and your car was converted properly, but when I read a post from someone north of the mason dixon line saying that their A/C is blowing ice cold I have to take that with a grain of salt.

Bring your Fiero to Houston and let me sit in it when the temperature in the shade is 109F and then let's see how cold the a/c is. The stock systems on new cars can barely handle that kind of heat.

After doing some reading I have come to the conclusion that R134a is the stupidest thing ever, and was a stop gap measure shoved down our throats by the EPA. Converting an R12 system to R134a makes no sense at all. It's a smaller molecule, operates at higher pressure, (bad combination for an old leaky system) It attacks all the rubber goods and the oils are incompatible.

Why mess with that? Now given 10 more years of research they have come up with refrigerants that are drop in replacements for R12 like Freeze 12. They are Ozone friendly, MORE efficient than R12, not less, and they will not attack the rubber and o-rings and will peacefully coexist with the R-12 oil. I am ordering some right now from www.autorefrigerants.com

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 05-16-2002).]

quote Originally posted by DZ: Where can you find Freeze 12?

Just about any autoparts store. I called around today to get some current prices because its been a while since I have bought any. Prices ranged from $5.25 to about $8 a can. Just a fraction of R-12 and only a couple bucks more than 134 without any hassle.
See why I stick with Freeze-12?

I hate to say it, but I am happy with my 134 conversion. My R12 had drained out over the years and my compressor had not been run in a long time. I elected not to follow the instructions, put on a vacume, blah blah. My system was empty, 0 psi, no vacume applied. I addded the oil, 134 freon and it has worked great since. no fuss what so ever. Maybe you have to change over the dryer and condensor, and other parts. But I am one of the lucky few, plus the R12 never seemed to work well anyway in my car.

88Ironduke

If its still broke, get a bigger hammer

ASE.... There ARE good ASE guys but it's often not any more meaningfull that MCSE or CNE are in the computer world. ASE doesn't make people universal car experts.

Automotive refrigeration is a specialty that very few people in the auto industry really take any time on. As a result, very few shops are really good at it.

There are about as many ways to convert a car to another refrigerant as there are bolts in the car. There are just as many experts claiming their method is best.

In my cave I tried to give people the best chance of getting decent results from HFC-134a. I never claimed it was the only way or that R134 would work for all users. There are thousands and thousands of pages of data on the subject. I tried to give a reasonable and useful bite on it.

Examples of things that haven't yet made it fully into the cave article...

One item commonly overlooked durring service or conversion is the orifice tube. Durring conversion most people just shove the same type tube back into the system. This alone likely has a major effect on the operation with R134.

GM has at least THREE differant Orifice Tubes available and indicates changing to the next one smaller, meaining the size of the metering holes, may improve performance with R134.

In the aftermarket there is a thing called a "Smart VOV." This thing is capable of dynamically adjusting orifice size. So far it has excelent reviews but I've never gotten a chance to use one.

GM also states in various documents that DA6 compressors aren't likely to play well, if at all, with R134. They recomend the HR6 be used instead. (I think only 88 V6 Fiero came stock with HR6.)

R134 attacks hoses etc???? Where did that data come from? All of the data I have indicates no such problem. In fact it is now widely recognized that the existing mineral oil laiden hoses in the majority of R12 equiped vehicles hold R134 almost as well as new Barrier hose. The oil in the hose walls actually acts as a sealant.

However if there is even one slightly weak joint seal or O-ring, R134, and many others, will leak right past it. This is one reason for the existance of Nylog assembly lube/sealant aide.

And Yes, The pressure cycling switch on clutch banger systems has to be tweeked when using R134. I think it's about 1/8-1/4 turn one way or the other. This is to accomodate the differance in vapor pressure between refrigerants. R134 is not alone in needing such a tweek. Some of the other blends, I think autofrost is one, also need the switch tweeked.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

quote Originally posted by theogre: And Yes, The pressure cycling switch on clutch banger systems has to be tweeked when using R134. I think it's about 1/8-1/4 turn one way or the other. This is to accomodate the differance in vapor pressure between refrigerants. R134 is not alone in needing such a tweek. Some of the other blends, I think autofrost is one, also need the switch tweeked.

I'm not a mechanic, so I base my opinions on what I read. It sounds to me like the results are heavily mixed on R134a conversions.

Common sense would indicate though that it would be easier to convert to a refrigerant, (like Freeze 12)that is already compatible with the existing system than to convert the entire system to match R134a with it's unique properties.

Does the comment about the cycling switch apply to V5 compressor systems as well?

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 05-18-2002).]

i haven't done a proper conversion, yet. it is at the top of the list of things to do. i will say that it is interesting that the people who like r134 all live north of the Mason Dixon, and those that dislike it all live south... hmm, why is that?

i have been to texas, haven't lived there, but am familiar with it's high dry heat. here in north carolina, we to have high heat, coupled with high humidity. my work van is a 2001 chevy venture, it has r134 coolant, and does a decent job at cooling... so far. so far, we haven't had 98 degree days with 95% humidity, either.

i won't my fiero to be as cool and comfortable as possible.

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hoop
Red
'86 GT
5 speed
Borla Exhaust
Eibach's/Poly/Kyb's

On my 85se/4cylinder, I did the bad conversion. All the R-12 was gone when I bought the car- the car lot was nice enough to remove it for me and use it in another car! So, I pulled a vac on it and shot it full of 134 and it worked fine for the year that I owned the car.
My 88 GT had an exploded compressor, so the entire system was broken down, flushed and a new compressor, receiver/drier and expansion valve/orifice tube added. In the heat of Alabama summers, it still blows air less than 40 degrees. I think the biggest part of making 134 work in older cars is the correct expansion valve.

None of the alternative refrigerants are exactly the same vapor pressure as R12. While some are closer than others, a number of them require the same fine tuning of the clutch cycle switch as R134.

V5 system doesn't have a clutch cycle switch. The only fine tuning available on that compressor is the control valve in the compressor. Four Seasons makes a valve to tune the compressor to R134.

Southern/Weastern users should look into the Smart VOV thing. They have one specifically tuned for vehicles operating where outdoor temperatures commonly run over 105F. For technical people, you can find out allot more about it at www.imcool.com Agian, I haven't tried one so I can't say if they are BS or not.

Simply Changing the fixed orifice tube size is a mixed bag. It may help some people and not others. There are things to watch out for if you do this so don't just start swapping tubes.

I converted an 86 Ford, and the results were excellent. The system had been inop for three years. I started by changing the oriface tube, both high and low pressure lines, the accumulator, and "O" rings. I drained the oil from the compressor and added the oil that came with the kit, then vacuumed the system down, and held it for about three hours. Then I added the 134 using the gauges connected to the low and high side. I could not get more than 80 percent of the 134 into the system without creating very high pressure on the low side. After it was all said and done, the system gave me 48 degree air at idle, in the middle of the South Carolina summer. At highway speed, it would cool down to about 40 degrees with the outside temp at 98+ degrees. The best part of the entire conversion was that it cost me about the same to convert it, including changing out the hoses, and accumulator than to recharge it with R-12. I converted the system about four years ago, and have not had to add any more R134 since, and it is still working as good as the day I did the conversion.

I will add however, that it did take me several weeks of fine tuning by adding or taking away refrigerant to get the optimum high/low pressure ranges so that the system could cool the interior of the car as well as it does.

I have not done the Fiero yet, but I am hoping for similar results.

Are you talking about the oil in the pressurized cans? Weren't you afraid of removing some of the oil, when you added the new oil and then pulled the vacuum?

Are you having problems with your AC jscott? Or are you just updating it? Just curious.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Changing the condenser to a more efficient design will undoubtedly increase efficiency of an R-134A retrofit. Yes I agree that would give the best result. However, even at at idle my system still blows 40* air. For an R-134A retrofit to work properly, the low side pressure switch on the accumulator MUST be recalibrated. Otherwise your compressor will not cycle long enough for proper cooling. The recalibration is done by adjusting the screw between the terminals on the pressure switch. If you want the procedure I can post it. As for Texas heat; that may have some effect but I can imagine that you'll have no A/C output even with a standard R-134A retrofit. As for the O rings kit sizes, let me dig into my notes and post the numbers.

could you post it please? thanks!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Are you talking about the oil in the pressurized cans? Weren't you afraid of removing some of the oil, when you added the new oil and then pulled the vacuum?

No, I did not use the pressurized cans to add oil to the system, It came in a small pour can. I added only a small amount. I can not remember how much it was exactly, but it was no more than an ounce... maybe two. I poured about an half into the accumulator, and about the same to the compressor before I put it back on. Since the system was not presurrized when I pulled the vacuum, I was not concerned about pulling oil back out.

When adding R134a to a system w/ a reman. V5 compressor what readings should the low side be?
After the second 12 oz. can, mine would only go down to 45lbs.

read the conversion stuff in my cave. 2 cans isn't enough by themselves.

If you poured in the oil you need most to all a third. If the oil was pressurized you need a little less... (Keep in mind some is wasted with each can change and in the gauge set if you used a dual gauge set.)

My V5 runs about 30 and 200.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-20-2002).]

Changed both of my Fieros. Works perfectly,very cold, no problems.

quote Originally posted by Master_Sushi: Are you having problems with your AC jscott? Or are you just updating it? Just curious.

You have a PM 'Sushi

quote Originally posted by theogre: 2 cans isn't enough by themselves. My V5 runs about 30 and 200.

Stock is 40oz.-8oz. of oil=32oz of R-12
32oz x 85%=27.2oz. 2 12oz. cans of R134a is almost enough if my math is correct. Also by sucking in more R134a wouldn't that raise the low side pressure?

Charge it with a dual gauge set so you can see both pressures. I still think you are under charged. 2 cans is only 24 ounces. With refrigeration small errors have big results.

You just repaired this system and added 8 oz of oil... You don't count the lube. The V5 itself holds that much oil. It's already figured into the original charge.

The only part of the lube you would count is the refrigerant in pressure oil cans.

Boy this post seems to have generated many pros and cons about the R-13A conversion. I still see this retrofit as the right way to go. I am very haapy with the results that I have obtained but I don't live in Texas!!!!
Some forum members seem to advocate the use of FREEZE-12 as a drop in replacement. This refrigerent may work but being a mixture of four different gases, it has different leakage characterisitics than either R-12 or R-134. Develop a leak with Freeze 12 and it renders the remaining charge useless. You must remove the remaining refrigerent. The four components of this gas are of different weights and densities so they do not leak out equally. A small leak ruins the remaining charge so you can't just "top it off". Freeze 12 is also flammable as it contains Butane, the same stuff used in cigarette lighters.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo Best 0-60 5.2 seconds
http://turbofiero.fierojoe.com/turbo.htm