Whats the difference? is there any difference in the bottom end? or is it all in the top? Does the series I 3800 have cross bolted mains and a steel crank like the series II? I'm picking up a 1989 3800 next week, it has 10,000 miles and Turbo TA heads on it. Not bad for $100. Complete with wiring harness and computer. also, What does it take to convert the computer to take boost? I'm just trying to asess the possibilities.

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Matt D
1984 Indy Fiero (auto)
1985 2m4 4T60, DIS V6 3.1 to be turbocharged

There is almost no difference in anything on the gen1 vs gen2. The differences include, different heads, different injectors, diff cam and lifters and diff fuel injection and TB. Plus the computer is much faster and displays alot more data.

To use the 3800 in your car with boost...you will have to find a turbocharged 3800 and use that computer or have someone with more knowledge about electronics to make the electrical/programing changes to the regular 3800 computer.

Phil

thats what I was hoping to hear. Its too bad its SFI, I was planning on putting the 1227727 Computer from my DIS 3.1 on it, but thats only a batch fire, and I'd like to keep the SFI, better for emmissions. I guess I could find a series I SC prom, put a 2 bar map and just add water and boost.

Don't forget to lower the compression ratio (new pistons and heavy con rods), replace the cam, and new intake plumbing...
Better to find a turbo 3800 and transplant it...
The series II uses a counterbalance shaft as well, while the series I does not have the counter balance shaft...
While the series II has less vibration, it has more parts to wear and brake...
crash...

I have a 3800 model 1 in my park ave there a awsome motor that lasts forever mine has 213k miles on it now

The 3800 is truely an impressive design, heres what I have found out about it so far.
All 3800's have balance shafts, the 3.8's dont (? - 1987) It is a Very well balanced motor, Lots of thaught went into designing the crank, block and into balancing it properly, it is a practically vibration free motor. Its actually designed to mimmick the firing order, and balance of a 60º v6. The added 30 degree seperation in the banks of cylenders was actually added to the crank too, resulting in seperate crank pins for each cylender, even on the adjacent cylenders, they are seperated and shifted to accomodate a 30º advance, making the Top Dead Center between adjacent cylenders 60º, Just like our Fiero's motors. All 3800's also have roller lifters, Im not too sure about the rockers on the series 1's, but the newer ones, ALL series 2's are roller rocker motors. All 3800 cranks are steel, and I know all series 2 cams are billet steel, not too sure about the series 1 again. All series 2 mains are 2 bolt in the normal aspect, but they also sit in a three sided channel in the block and have 2 more bolts coming in through the side of the channel into the caps, They are VERY heavy and rediculously overkill, In otherwords, there O.K.
But I am not sure if series 1's feature this same cap design. All 3800's have whats called a Gearator oil pump, It is driven off the back of the harmonic balancer and sits inside the timing cover. This pump design is superior to the older design where the oil pump is driven off of the cam (1/2 crank speed) also, no 3800 ever came with a distributor, all use coil pack ignition. All 3800's and even many 3.8 before it use Sequential Fuel Injection (SFI) witch reduces emmissions greatly and also greatly improves gas mileage. The 3800 design is almost problem free, there is little to maintain and it shares many proven technologies derived from GM's most sucsessful designs, mostly the 60º V6 line, the 3.8 witch is actually its retired ancestor, and even alittle 350. The main problem I have noticed is the cam thrust bearing point on the inside of the timing cover, That wears down you have to replace the entire cover (what kind of Sh!t is that?)
Anyways, Check out this motor and all its pics that can be found at the thrashercharged web page http://www.thrashercharged.com/L67_htm/engine_tear.shtm

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Matt D
1984 Indy Fiero (auto)
1985 2m4 4T60, DIS V6 3.1 to be turbocharged

Awesome info guys!!!
So what you guys are saying is i can take the heads, intake and supercharger from a series II and bolt it to a series 1 block and vise versa?

Thanks for the info!
Eric

QUOATE "There is almost no difference in anything on the gen1 vs gen2. The differences include, different heads, different injectors, diff cam and lifters and diff fuel injection and TB. Plus the computer is much faster and displays alot more data.
To use the 3800 in your car with boost...you will have to find a turbocharged 3800 and use that computer or have someone with more knowledge about electronics to make the electrical/programing changes to the regular 3800 computer.

Phil"

ARE YOU ON CRACK? NOTHING IS INTERCHANGEABLE BETWEEN S1 AND S2, MAYBE THE OIL FILTER ADAPTER AND A COUPLE OF BOLTS. TWO TOTTALLY DIFFERENT ENGINES PERIOD!

you could put a supercharger on it but will need to lower compression and get a memcal from a supercharged car, plus the top half of the engine and brackets....ect. prolly not worth it. anyway good luck. dk.

I have a hard time beleiveing that gm made a new block for the series 2... Maybe I am on crack, but I think the previous post was more accurate. 3800sc S1 and 3800sc S2 are just different from the heads up. (minus some details like different metal alory on the crank ect.. )

Can someone literally prove that a 3800sc S2 head, intake, SuperCharger, TB ect will not bolt to a 3800SC S1 block?

thanks.
Eric

it is a new block, it is about 3 inches narrower than the old block, nothing will bolt up, i have both engines, sorry to here about your drug problem, have you tried rehab?

ok, abviously I'm ignorant here.. So GM (who rarely changes the design of anything) has made a new block for the 3800 S2 that is 3 inches narrower than the S1? This block still being 90 degree and still 3.8L. What did they do? make the block thinner? Were are you taking these measurments? and since you have both, can you post the block castingson the list so we can compare the info?

thanks.
Eric

wow you guys just dug up some old stuff. I have since then bought the 3800 series 1 found too many problems with it, and bought a 3.4 DOHC The series 1 and 2 blocks ARE different, It does not have the well supported main caps and is only 2 bolt, other than that they are AFAIK the same as layout and size, judging by the pictures and the actual series 1 block in my basement. I don't see any reason that the blocks are different outside of the crank case. But far as strength and reliability is concerned, Series II is unparalelled.

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Matt D
1984 Indy Fiero 4sp.
1985 2m4 4T60, DIS V6 3.1
Once again, another chance of plans, a 1996 3.4 DOHC with this...

quote Originally posted by dkemp: Phil..ARE YOU ON CRACK? NOTHING IS INTERCHANGEABLE BETWEEN S1 AND S2, MAYBE THE OIL FILTER ADAPTER AND A COUPLE OF BOLTS. TWO TOTTALLY DIFFERENT ENGINES PERIOD! .

I tell you what.. YOU must be the one on Crack...!!!!! Phil was a GM Tech. for 25 year's! He IS one of the MOST knowledgable people on this Forum. You have a total of 3Post here and that's NOT a very good way to start your reputation here, acting like a smartas$!! Even if you are correct, You don't have to act like that. Try and get your point across in a nicer way!!

Beside's "Crack KILL's"----Pot's a THRILL!!!
Steve
Smooth GT

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"Smooth Fiero GT's RULE!!"

SmoothFieroGT@Yahoo.com
4.9L V/8....Rebuild In Progress!!

i did not post to be a smart ass nor to offend the members, but when i see a 25yr tech post something like that i have to ask what is up? the blocks are way different and i guess i thought he should know that. i have been reading the forum for a couple of years, and some of the miss information just blows me away, kinda like the guy who said getrags had plastic syncros, if you do not know something for fact then do not state it for fact. just my oppinion. my sincere appology to the forum. dk.

The series II blocks have about a 1" shorter deck height than the series 1 3800's and earlier 3.8 V6's. (deck height is the distance from the crank centerline to the cylinder head mounting surface). Therefore, the series II block is narrower than the earlier engines. ALL buick V6 engines (3.8/3800 I/3800 II) run CAST cranks and CAST rods. The series II heads, intakes and exhaust manifolds will not work on any other engine because of the different intake and exhaust valve arrangement. The series II connecting rods and pistons will not work in earlier engines either because of the shorter decks. The supercharged 3800 and 3800 II engines use different connecting rods and pistons than their naturally asperated counterparts. Crankshafts are interchangable for their respective series but will need to be rebalanced to compensate for the different reciprocating mass of the rods and pistons. Series II 3800's were the only ones to come with factory roller rockers and are not directly backward compatible.

Whether or not the 3.8/3800 I/3800 II engines use steel for cranks is questionable. As I said before, all of these engines use a CAST crank. I doubt GM would make a cast STEEL crank but I could be wrong as I don't know the exact alloy of the metals used. The easiest way to tell if your crank is forged or cast to to locate the parting line that runs the length of the crank, most easily found on the counterweights. A thin, sharp parting line (about 1/16" of an inch thick) indicates a casting; whereas a thick parting line (about 1/4" thick) indicates a forging. Another way to tell is to gently tap the crank with a hammer... A long "ringing" sound indicates forged, while a dull thud indicates cast. This procedure will only work if the crank is out of the block.

Most likely the cranks are of the nodular iron alloy as both 3800 I and 3800 II use a crank with a rolled and undercut fillet design. To the best of my knowledge, this type of manufacturing process is not found on forgings.

Hope this helps clear things up.

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1987 Pontiac Fiero Coupe #18,838
3800 Series II SFI
4T60-E Trans
3.33 Final Drive

1987 Pontiac GTA
5.7L SuperRam MPFI
4L60-E Trans
3.73 SRD

http://dtcc.cz28.com

[This message has been edited by SubZero350 (edited 07-05-2002).]

LOL......that's how rumors get started....the blocks are the same as are most of the parts between the engines.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

so the blocks are the same? (as I figured)

gt dude,

the blocks are not the same, you should check you facts, they are way different, i hope once you check, you are not too pridefull to post the correct information.

dk.

dk.......I don't have any books in front of me right now.....just going from experience. I always correct my posts if I find I have been mistaken......however this time........well I'll check it out closely tomorrow.

Phil

I have no idea who is right here but I tend to lean towards the blocks being the same to the point of interchangeble. *there may be a notch here or there different but lets face it.. GM likes to keep it simple when it comes to producing parts. (that why we love them right? ) Take the 5.0L and the 5.7L they must have been 3 decades of being the same cast plock with ofcourse small variations here and there and improovements, but swappable.

(I think the new 5.0L and 5.7L are still very similar if still produced? I think vans still get those right? cars get the LS1 series now.. dunno, not an expert!)

Cheers!
Eric

http://www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/1995/1995_Oldsmobile_Ninety_Eight_Regency_Elite.html

from the firebird v6 site quoate :

In 1995, Buick thoroughly overhauled the successful 3800 V-6 in anticipation of rising customer expectations. The latest advancements in design, materials, and manufacturing were invested in the new engine, now designated 3800 Series II V-6.

Key features are as follows:

A low deck height cylinder block trims 8.8 pounds of weight and reduces the exterior dimensions.
Cross-bolted main-bearing caps and a deep-skirt design improves stiffness to reduce noise radiated from the engine.
Lightweight pistons with floating pins and low-tension rings in combination with shorter cast-steel connecting rods reduce reciprocating mass and internal friction.
More rigidly mounted external accessories (alternator, power steering pump, AC compressor) are smoother and quieter in operation.
Replacing the balance shaft's front roller bearing with a pressure-lubed sleeve bearing reduces noise.
Cylinder heads with symmetric ports and combustion chambers balance power output, improving smoothness and reducing emissions.
Larger valves, less restrictive intake and exhaust ports, a larger throttle body and mirror-smooth passages in the molded composite intake manifold improve volumetric efficiency. Lighter, stiffer valvetrain components facilitate a 6000-rpm redline.
More aggressive valve timing improves both low and high rpm output.
Horsepower, torque and fuel efficiency are improved by a higher 9.4:1 compression ratio.
The addition of dual knock sensors permits optimum spark timing and protection against detonation.
Oil pan, crankshaft, and water pump seals are improved to yield a lifetime leak-free engine.
A constrained-layer oil pan design (sound-deadening material between two layers of steel) quiets noise at the bottom of the engine.
Exhaust manifolds and connecting pipes are designed to minimize the radiation of both heat and noise for quiet operation and rapid warm-up of the catalytic converter.
A foam-lined top acoustical cover mutes injector click and intake system noise.
Nearly all of the Series II refinements invested in the normally aspirated 3800 V-6 were passed on to the supercharged version in 1996. In addition, the supercharger's internal displacement was increased from 62 to 90 cubic inches. Driving the blower 1.8 times faster than crankshaft speed yields a maximum full-throttle boost of 7.5 psi and impressive output: 240 horsepower at 5200 rpm and 280 lb-ft of torque at 3600 rpm.

That's more torque than any other manufacturer offers in a six-cylinder engine, including Porsche's new 911.

Delivering a supercharged engine that's as smooth, quiet, efficient, and trouble-free as the 3800 Series II is no easy feat. The entire powertrain must be treated as one interrelated system to meet a long list of demands without compromise.

The air induction tract must be tuned from the mouth of the air cleaner all the way to the intake valve for quiet operation with maximum performance.

Two helmholtz resonators eliminate induction boom. Cavities are also positioned in the supercharger's cast aluminum housing to quiet induction noise. Each rotor has three lobes which are twisted 60 degrees along their length to smooth pressure build up and air flow. These extruded-aluminum rotors are powder-coated with epoxy for lifetime durability.

Since the rotors seal without contact, there is no chance for wear in normal service. An axial entry port at the rear of the housing and a bottom exit port are carefully configured to hush the siren sound with no loss of flow capacity.

Sealed lubricant reservoirs at both ends of the supercharger provide lifetime maintenance-free reliability. During idle and cruise operation, a valve controlled by the powertrain computer bypasses intake air around the supercharger to minimize drag.

That helps deliver excellent fuel efficiency: The Buick Regal GS achieves 18 mpg in EPA city driving and 27 mpg in highway ratings. The Buick Park Avenue Ultra and the Riviera both score 18 mpg in the city and 27 mpg on the highway. Buick's balance of supercharged performance and efficiency beats virtually every V-8-powered automobile on the U. S. market.

In summary, the supercharging road is long and winding with side trips high into the sky. But this much is inarguable: supercharging the 3800 V-6 engine is a marriage made in engineering heaven.

More on the '95 L36 GM 3800 V6: block is 11 pounds lighter, rods are .64 inches shorter, pistons are different, the main caps are powder metal, the balance shaft now has a plain bearing in back instead of a roller, a windage tray has been added, pistons have floating pins, dual knock sensors are used, new ports and "symmetrical" combustion chambers, lighter valve, investment-cast rockers.

end quoate. dk

I see the confusion here now......88.5 thru 91 took the gen1 3800.......92 thru 95 took the gen2 3800. Gen1 is code C Gen 2 is Code L I believe. We are confusing series and generation......or at least I am.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

Sounds like a very unique motor

great match for a Fiero

as the Fiero is one of a kind aswell

Yep.......3800 is a great engine....period.

Phil

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GTDude
OVER 25 years GM experience

There is a great deal of confusion here and also bad info from well intentioned people. I work in the only plant that builds the 3800 Series II and I was part of the original design team. I have been with this engine since 1984 and have watched its development. Lets see if I can straighten out some misconceptions.
Until 88 the engine had no balance shaft or gerotor oil pump and was called the 3.8 MFI
In 88 it got that balance shaft, gerotor pump and a few other goodies such as crank sensor, cam sensor and computerized ignition. I am currently driving an 88 Electra that I bought new. Still runs great.
Between 88 and 95 there were many changes, such as supercharging, pressed in rear lip seal and continuos small changes in overall efficiency.
In 95 the Series II went into production. A WHOLE new block NOT interchangle with any earlier block. It is a low deck design with pressed in main caps which are side bolted, the cylinders are on center with the rods, the oil and water passages at the rear of the block are sealed with an aluminum plate, and there are many other differences to numerous to list here.
All 3800 cranks are nodular iron.
Supercharger pistons are teflon coated with a dished top to lower compression ratio
Supercharger heads are different. Don't know exactly why.
Cranks, flywheels and harmonic balancers are balanced separately and assembled randomly.
If anyone has any specific questions let me know and I'll see if I can get the answer.
Dave