OK, we all know some people think these are jsut "rice", while others see them as being useful aerodynamic aids.

1) What is your opinion on this subject (stated NICELY, please. This is Cliff's board).

2) What basis do you have for your opinion.

PLEASE keep it clean, and concise.

This topic is NOT about fiberglass non-functional wings/spoilers, but only about real-racing-equipment aluminum and/or carbon fiber adjustable wings, like offerings from APR.

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1) I personally believe people have the right to put whatever they want on their own car, whether for looks or for performance, and do my best not to make fun of them for it (unless they are claiming results they cannot attain from a product).
I do, however believe these are useful in everything form high-speed spirited street driving, to drag racing, to road racing and rally.

2) I hold this opinion because;
a) I have been racing (mainly autoX with limited road racing) for 7+ years, and have used one of their wings, with NOTICEABLE affect on handling from as little as 40MPH.
I have also used the "adjustable" function to adjust rear traction on tight high-speed corners, with noticeable results.

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[]image dropped temporarilly[]
TRiAD Motorsports ~ Performance Tuning of European, Japanese and Domestic Automobiles
Project MR1 / Let the modding begin! ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com * AIM ~ Michael Blue 72
Only the dead have seen the end of war. ~ Plato

As for different styles, I will reserve comment, as everyone has individual tastes.
I have seen some aftermarket wings that I personally really liked, and some that I really hated.

You mentioned non-functional fiberglass, etc...
The fact of the matter is that the stock Fiero wing is quite functional. It reduced drag on the Indy pace car body by a significant amount. From .34 Cd to .30 Cd, or something similar. I do remember reading it, just don't remember the exact figures.

As for downforce, I'm not sure. The Fiero wing just reduced turbulence behind the car.

I would suspect that similarly sized wings, placed at the same angle, would behave about the same.

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

Hey TRiAd, can you show some descent pics with the wing(s) on a GT? Just curious. One more thing, you say they are adjustable for more downforce on the rear end right. Wouldnt that just make the front end "slide out" more than they already do? NEWay, lets see some pics!

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HONDA SUCKS!!!

In this picture, You can see my aluminum APR adjustable wing. I feel it has provided a little more downdorce on teh already heavy rear end, providing (although minimal) better handling characteristics

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Rebuilt HIPO 2.8, Zr-1 Cowl
Induction Hood, 1/4 Window scoops,
APR Euro Aluminum Adjustible Spoiler,
Custom Blue Interior, Weight Reduction

I liked jim halls winged wonders
esp the adjust on the fly/brakes part
and you got to get them up over roof line to realy work or your just in dead or bad airflow at stock hight
but hall's trick was to mount uprights to wheel's hubs carriers NOT TO BODY so push is on wheels not springs!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

I am not the all-knowlegable wing man, but I thought that a wing on a FWD car only helps fight drag. Yet with the RWD cars this helps keep the drive wheels from slipping out around turns. Course that might be all wrong with the fact the the Diablo and other cars have the optional front wings. Somebody teach me!

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Mark Matthews
'87 GT Fastback T-top

I don't have any experience with big aluminum race wings, but I do with the stock wing. The fact that when the car has been rained on, and rain drops don't blow off the spoiler under normal spirited driving tells me something.

Mine is good for keeping the headlights of anyone behind me from being obnoxious.

Other than that, I like the looks better with than without, on a fastback. But that's just my opinion, not necessarily required to be shared by others.

I've attached string to the top and bottom of my stock Formula's wing, the string didn't really move... no airflow to speak of at stock height.

Racing is another story entirely. I am talking about large surface area, ajustable pieces of carbon sitting ABOVE roof level (nessicary in our cars for any downforce.)

Now, downforce must be managed in order to be effective. If all you have is rear downforce, you will simply push (understeer) at speed.....

This is BAD....

You need the front of your car to ride about 1" lower than the rear, and the hood needs to be vented. Combine with a chin spoiler of some sort (air scrubber I call 'em. Can be anything from Skitime's work of art, to a piece of 1/4" palstic rivited on before track day. Got to get the air AWAY from under the car!

When it's all said and done, if operating properly, a wing should suck a HUGE ammount of power in drag, and convert that power directly into downforce.

Above 150mph, a Formula 1 race car is making enough downforce to suck it to the road... inverted, driving on the celing of a tunnel. At 220mph, over 9/10ths of the car's power is going directly into downforce. (over 4.5'gees' or 4.5x the car's weight, at speed.)

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Ok I feel responsible for this somewhat. Let me point out I never questioned the value of an aerodynamic device , just the majority of the cars they go on.

Let me clairify...

Necessary

This has 560Hp , The owner drifts the car (popular in japan) the car has the power to neccesitate such a device as it could achieve a speed in which that item would be useful. Claimed 180mph top speed.

Un-necessary

This is timmy's car , timmy just leased it. Wanting to keep up with his friends and the import craze timmy decides he wants that wing ,it's cool and shiney. Timmy makes up the majority of the buyers for that wing. As adjustable as it may be , for timmy it's Stylized performance , and has no real use other than hindering vision and giving me something to laugh at. Bad Timmy!

No offense to anyone who has one , this is my position. No doubt you will sell them , becasue there are tons of kids that make up timmy's demographic.

JM

dont know about y'all but my 84 2m4 never has had a problem with the rear end - maybe not enough power to do so <ggg> but above 70mph the FRONT end gets light - how can a rear wing help this? what the fiero needs IMHO is a FRONT wing or improved air scoop - would also help a lot with improved cooling.

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"It is better to remain quiet and have people think you are a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt" - Abe Lincoln

I'm pressed for time,,,,

The shape of the Fiero will put most wings into pretty unstable air. That alone will significantly alter their usefullness if any.

Beyond that, you can't put just any wing on any car. You'll definatly want an easily adjustable job for racing, especially if also driving on the street allot.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 03-25-2002).]

I agree a little bit with Slammed.

These racing wings do not belong on a stupid FWD sedan. Our fieros are alot closer to that Supra than that civic.

I'd take the carbon fiber one over the stock any day I get the money.

How about something like this. It looks like the one on the Yellow and Black car that most people seem to like and it's adjustable.

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I was talking to one of my fraternity brothers who is an aeronautical engineer and he says that most wings as they are designed are really only effective, if at all, at speeds greater then 120 mph and are particularly useless on front wheel drive vehicles. So why get one? well, maybe your car can go over 120 mph. or maybe it just looks cool. dont get me wrong, Id love to put a GT wing on the old silver bullet, and I fully accept that it doesnt do a lick of good. At least not with my stock 4 banger. I often wonder if the "improved performance" people feel is more of a psychological belief then fact. Of course, if your wheels has the gonads to go over 120 mph, you're all good

I think it's about apperance , if you would like to sell those goto a race car forum you've clearly stated that they help out at high speed's , but just how fast are you going to go in a fiero? , most car's on here are everyday driver's ,and i don't think anyone doing V8 swaps would show much interest in those wings , maybe , maybe not.

Kasdan's car is a perfect example of why NOT to put one of those wings's on your car, it just dosen't suit the car , and it looks like somthing you would build out of a mechano set with some spare scrap's of aluminum.

I'm not trying to bash anyone's hard work , don't take anything the wrong way, i'm just pointing out a few things

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Friday night's the perfect night to mow some neighbors lawn, and dave is drunk and at the helm before too long, and chris will gladly ride shotgun , because navigating seem's like fun , drunk and out of gas they drive around and crash. There driving through your yard there's nothing you can do , dave's behind the wheel and he's had more then just a few, suburban family's suffering civility, awakend to the sight's and sounds of the yard there blowin down in there death machine...

Mp3: Lagwagon
Title : Stokin the neighbors

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: 1) What is your opinion on this subject 2) What basis do you have for your opinion.

1. Good designs work. There are many design factors that determine the overall benefit from the wing. There is also a science and art of trading off the gains against the losses to achieve a balance where the vehicle will perform well.

2. Studying aerodynamic, fluid dynamic theories, and basic principles.

biggest gain is from blocking air from going under car and venting it out via hood scoop/vents I can't recall anybody complaining about rear lifting but fronts sure will get lite
maybe add a extra bigger rubber strip behind rad opening to limit airflow under car and force it up and out vents in hood shape of vent is important for smooth flow and a little downforce tooo
so do fronts vents and strips before spending $$$ on wings for back

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Question wonder and be wierd

1. i honestly don't think it looks THAT bad on a fiero. i like it as much as i like the standard fiero wing. i'm not a huge fan of that either though.
the problem is that even if that wing does begin to produce downforce at high speed, it's going to need to produce a lot of it in order to influence a 2700lb car vs an 1800lb race car. we looked at using wings on the formula SAE car last year, and to get a significant amount of USABLE downforce at a practical speed (we were looking at ~40mph) the wings had to be almost twice the size of the car. and that's on a 500lb formula car.

now, we all know that downforce increases with the square of speed, so if someone were going, say, 120 mph, said wing would make a reasonable amount of downforce.
if you're looking at it from a tuning aid POV, it could be beneficial. but i know i don't go 120 too often so it wouldn't benefit me. therefore, for me to put it on the car for my purposes (i.e. it looks cool) would be rice.
here's the thing though: you have no right to tell someone what they can or can't put on THEIR car. if someone wants to put it on their car, more power to them (not literally, of course- that's what the stickers are for, hehe). there are thousands of these wings out there in the world, but not too many on fieros. it's a somewhat original idea. makes the car stand apart from the other fieros, even if the other fieros now consider it rice. why not just respect the desire to have something different and be done with it?

people have to remind themselves sometiems that they do not rule the world. just because you think something sucks, that doesn't make it so. you can get all the consensus you like, but it doesn't make a lick of difference if the person who uses said product likes it.

also, if you're gonna call something rice, make sure you're not contradicting yourself. if you call these wings rice, you MUST admit that the stock fiero wing is too. the stock wing is COMPLETELY useless, there only for show. why is it not rice, but these are? come on people, be consistent here...

2. formula SAE (with a rather involved study of the aerodynamics to determine if wings were even remotely beneficial), some books on aerodynamics

The results that I've seen for the stock wing show only that it smooths the rather nasty-rough airflow caused by the vertical rear window, and sail panels.

Now, in terms of OTHER results, you had better show me slips from your wind-tunnel run before I will EVER take any aftermarket setups seriously.

In terms of style, I personally DETEST anything aluminum, or high-profile on pretty much any car ever made.

I agree with ogre.
There is not enough "surface"(front to back) on that wing to be of any substancial use on the street. Now for the track...still think not enough but that is my opion.

Sorry Triad but yes I think rice when I see them. if they WERE larger like stock spoilers and still made like that...hmmm maybe.

I saw a mustang gt with the exact one. I could not stop laughing. The way it appered on the stang and the fact of how small it was in porportion to the rest of the rear deck lid / car.

Since this has turned to opinions of style, I think that the Fiero needs something back there. The Fiero I am picking up on Wednesday has nothing, and it just doesn't look good to me. I’d rather have the luggage rack back there than nothing (plus then I can say it is a family car hehe)The point of my Fiero will be drag race, but I will still need to spank people if they want to take it out to the country. With that said I have been debating getting a stock wing to put on.... I don't think that it helps and just adds weight. Yes, this is just a tiny bit but every pound helps. No... I am not going to strip the interior, which is impractical. When I see big wings I do think rice, but does it really matter what I THINK, no not really. Part of the reason I went with a Fiero is because we can make them all look different. With the Eclipses they all looked the same, and there are way too many of them. The Fiero count in Eau Claire is maybe ten.

No wing does anything at less than very high speed. It has to be in the airstream then to even be effective. Behind a roof (with a flat vertical window at that) does nothing more than look pretty. On some cars, it may contribute to keeping the rear of the car dust free. Those big aluminum wings prob do more than any since their adjustable to catch wind and force it up or down. Late model stock cars like you see at sat nite tracks and nascar style cars use a spoiler rather than a wing. That creates drag on the rear end to keep it more pulled in line, sorta like pulling a toy on a string. its not so much downforce there. If you look at lots of european exotic cars you really seldom see a huge wing except on those capable of near 200 mph. Even some of those is more for the look. Ive driven a Countach with and one without the big back wing and at 130 mph I never noticed any decernable difference in either stability or handling. There may be figures out there that show improvements, but they have figures to prove magnets on your fuel line will increase fuel milage too. Im talking seat of the pants, actual driving feel. Anyone who claims their Taurus or Celebrity or even Z28 is so much better is just suffering placibo effect. Ever notice how much nicer your car drives after you wash and polish it. Their just fancy luggage racks that you cant fasten luggage too.

no wings here, I drove one of these and their 400 hp and ez 180+ and feel solid as a rock, you have to work at trying to spin one out. So I see no reason for a Honda to have one. All just my opinions, Ive driven lots of exotic cars and raced oval track for years. So comes from my true life experience, not an engineer quoting me stats.
Im sure there will be lots of disagreements with me, but I dont have a prob with that.

To sum up, put what you like on your car, feel like it improves your car or whatever, and quit watching Fast and the Furious, Of course were talking street driven cars, due to speed and body designs of Cart and Formula 1 style cars, all that is different-they do affect the car substantially.

(they put small 'winglets' on airplanes to improve performance, but of course there going in excess of 500 mph)

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-26-2002).]

Most aftermarket wings don't do much, because they aren't setup for the vehicle, and the vehicle doesn't go fast enough to make a difference. The big thing people forget is, if you create downforce on one end of the car, that will tend to create an upforce on the other end.

Case in point - my '72 Trans Am had a front air dam, fender flares (the spoilers at the leading edge of the wheel wells), a rear spoiler and front fender air extractors. These were proved useful in Trans Am racing at triple digit speeds. The rear end was very light, so the rear spoiler added needed downforce. the fender air extractors and front air dam were added to counter the front end lift you get at high speed and the added lift generated by the rear spoiler. The fender flares smoothed air flow over the wheel wells, and just improved aerodynamics. In this case, it's an integrated system of vents, spoilers, and air dams.

Just adding one without consideration to the rest of the car can end up doing more harm than good. If you were to add just the rear spoiler on a Firebird with no other air dams, vents, etc., not only would you increase rear downforce, but you'd increase front end lift at high speed. Bad idea. That's why Ben said it would make your car understeer at high speed - less front wheel traction due to lift.

For street driven cars, it rarely makes a difference, even if they are well designed. At that point, go with what you think looks good.

Hey Roger, you've driven a 288GTO?

PS: The F355 has no rear 'wing' either (just the lift spoiling 'lip')

IMHO, I can think of seven better ways to spend $349 (or more) off the top of my head...

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

yes art. A couple years ago. A guy in our car club has a Testa Rossa. I went with him to PA to bring a 288 back to his place. Hes a car collector and was storing it for a guy for the winter. Lots of the guys in our sports car club have exotics, so on some road trips we trade cars just for the fun of it. Driven the TR, Viper, Boxster, DeLorean, Pantera (G3 i think),and V8 Triumph (fact Range Rover v8). From some others I can think off offhand Lancia Stratos (one of the actual LeMans racers converted to street), 2 diff Countachs, 911 Carerra. Still like to try out a GT40. Of course 355, 308/328, Lotus Esprit and an original BMW M1 (they tried serious sports car racing but its a dog). Prob leaving a lot out I cant remember rite now. Some I pick up to do some body work for owners.

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"1) What is your opinion on this subject (stated NICELY, please. This is Cliff's board)."

A rear spoiler can do some good, but to see a noticeable improvement in aerodynamics, it must be used as part of an "aerodynamic system". The stock Fiero spoiler doesn't do anything for downforce, because it isn't anywhere near the airstream coming off the roof. Set it up on 7" tall stands and you'll see an increase in rear downforce.

And one more thing. Those skinny spoilers don't do much either. You need a nice deep spoiler with a noticeable angle of attack. The stock Fiero spoiler is pretty deep (about 10" if I remember correctly) and has a nice angle of attack. It just isn't placed high enough.

"2) What basis do you have for your opinion."

Two things:

First of all are the wind tunnel charts I've seen for the notchback Fiero. If you look at the profile of the Fiero, the roof drops slightly towards the rear deck. Likewise, the airstream over the roof drops a couple inches as it travels over the decklid. At the rear of the decklid, the airstream is about 8"-9" above it. Perfect height for 7" tall spoiler stands.

Second is the real-world results I've seen from the boosted spoiler on my notchback SE. I don't race the car and don't drive it over 60MPH very often, so I haven't noticed much of an aerodynamic improvement.

However, whilst driving on a road trip, I got to see some visual clues to the improved aerodynamics. I was driving down the interstate going about 70MPH and it started to rain. I looked out the rearview mirror and my car was kicking the water mist up so high that it was plastering the windshield of the semi truck behind me. I thought it was an interesting role reversal.

hey roger, dno't the 355 and 360 have venturis under them that provide a bit of download at really high speed? i thought i read somewhere that the 360 makes like 200lbs at high speed (not really sure what the speed was though). they may not have wings, but they do have downforce generating aerodynamics.

hey, anyone ever considered ground effects (i mean REAL ground effects tunnels)?
hehe, yeah, i know...

unless you move the motor and trans there is not much room for the tunnels in back
fans blowing out vents may work some in back for downforce but would need skirts TOOO like jim hall used after they banned his moving wing cars so he added FANS instead to suck the car down.

im not clear sure, but I think the only ones with anything resembling a tunnel are the F40, F50 and Modena. And I think thats more to circulate air thru engine comp, Similar to what Fieros do. Im just speaking of wings since that was the topic. Ferrari, Lambo and similar cars get lots of benefit from the cars shape in general. Front is a wedge, low rooflines. The 308/328 front hood generates a good amount of downforce on the front end and the way the fenders bulge up on the sides of the hood traps the air in the center of the hood and thens directs it over the windshield and roof. Were talking of downforce from an area prob 6X5 feet. Thats a lot bigger that a 8 inch wide wing. Fiero shape (sorta copied from Ferrari) does that similarly, but the front doesnt go down nearly as far to the road, so its not as steep an angle. And the fenders are flush clear across. US cars are designed nowadays to be efficient at hiway speed. The exotics, that are usually street versions of race cars to some extent, design them for the 150-200+ mph range.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-27-2002).]