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Northstar Aluminum Intake vs Composite? by BigTurbo87GT
Started on: 03-14-2002 04:18 PM
Replies: 12
Last post by: artherd on 03-16-2002 03:01 PM
BigTurbo87GT
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Report this Post03-14-2002 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BigTurbo87GTSend a Private Message to BigTurbo87GTDirect Link to This Post
Does anybody know???
Has the Northstar intake manifold ever been made of aluminum instead of composite material.
Will intake manifolds swap between all years of engine?
I can't seem to find a good source of detail history/design evolution for the Northstar.
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Report this Post03-14-2002 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero STSSend a Private Message to Fiero STSDirect Link to This Post
well as far as my experience shows, the 94 caddy had an aluminum and plastic manifold. the manifold is several pieces. the runners are plastic. the 95 is different as it does away with all the aluminum but has the same throttle body as the 94. I know the 98 is simalar to the 95 except for the throttle body. the 94 has different heads as the egr system uses passages in the heads. also appears the 2000 has different heads. hopr this helps. mabey someone else can fill in some of the details
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artherd
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Report this Post03-14-2002 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for artherdClick Here to visit artherd's HomePageSend a Private Message to artherdDirect Link to This Post
I've got one of the Aluminum/composite intakes (a '94 of course) on an otherwise 1998 engine.

Externally, the intake is aluminum, with an aluminum cover (NOT a 'beauty' cover, this one is gasketed) but the inside velocity horns/runners are plastic.)

I need a '95+ intake BAD! (my race computer won't work with the '94.)

In 2000 the N* was updated a fair bit, they droped compression a tad, and the heads are quite different (and will not swap) all to run on regular gas now... who cares?

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

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Nashco
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Report this Post03-15-2002 04:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
So what year is the best, theoretically, for a Fiero swap? So far sounds like a 95...

Bryce
88 GT

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Will
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Report this Post03-15-2002 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
93-94: cast aluminum intake. The only intake which can be used with forced induction.

95-99 totally composite intake. This manifold can not be used with forced induction, as it has a sneeze valve which opens if the engine backfires through the intake (to keep the plastic manifold from shattering). The sneeze valve lets all the boost out.

2000: the EGR passages, throttle body spacer, and throttle body heat lines are incorporated into the coolant crossover manifold. As far as I know, the earlier manifolds will still fit this engine.

The early engines were just shy of 300 HP on 87 octane. For MY2K, the switch to a roller valvetrain recovered enough frictional HP that the engine could be timed more conservatively and still make 300 HP on 87 octane. There were no changes to the combustion chambers or compression ratio for MY2K.
The architecture of the electronic controls is TOTALLY different for MY2K engines.

I don't know anything about EGR passages in the heads with 94 engines.

I'm pretty sure that all intakes will fit all engines. I'm planning a project involving an MY2K engine and an aluminum intake.

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BigTurbo87GT
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Report this Post03-15-2002 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BigTurbo87GTSend a Private Message to BigTurbo87GTDirect Link to This Post
Excellent! Thank y'all very much.
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86 FIERO GT
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Report this Post03-15-2002 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 FIERO GTSend a Private Message to 86 FIERO GTDirect Link to This Post
Alittle info for the norhtstart. In 93 and 94 eldorados ETC are the strongest northstar engines yet. They were just coming out so GM had the engine make likr 40-50 hp more than advertised. There are two different styles of engines, the "9" motor and the "N" the "9" makes 300 hp and is found in like devilles and eldos, STS's; the "N" motors came in SLS's and made 275 hp. If you can find a ETC eldo, and get the engine and trans, you can pick up on a 4 speed trans with 3.73 and the underrated northstar.

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86 Fiero GT , soon to be N*ed and worked over.

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SteveJ
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Report this Post03-15-2002 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for SteveJSend a Private Message to SteveJDirect Link to This Post
Here is a post by Al Cline an engineer at Cadillac in the engine division which he did to another board today. He is talking to a guy who has some type of leak. The original question is at the bottom. I don't think Al will mind me posting it here as it might correct some misconceptions like it isn't aluminum but magnesium.

You are looking in the wrong place for the oil leak/smoke/smell....

Understand that on a 93 and 94 Northstar the "silver plastic cover" is actually a die cast magnesium part and it is not just a beauty cover but the top of the intake manifold. When you take it off by removing the perimeter bolts you are looking inside the intake manifold. The oily residue you see is quite normal. It is actually the accumulation of the heavy ends of hydrocarbons from the fuel delivered by the injectors. If you were to remove one of the plastic tubes you will actually see quite a bit of the heavy hydrocarbon residue in the bottom of the intake manifold base. This is completely normal and does not constitute an unusual situation. With the 93 and 94 Northstar intake manifold the injectors, fuel rail, wiring harness, etc. are actually completely INSIDE the manifold. The residue you see cannot leak onto anything.....it is inside the manifold.

In the 93 and 94 the PCV gases are actually routed to phenolic distribution blocks or plates on each side of the intake manifold that act as spacers and isolators between the intake and the cylinder head. The phenolic spacers actually distribute PCV and
EGR to each individual cylinder.

Be very careful to reinstall the cover correctly and torque the fasteners correctly. The perimeter fasteners have large rubber grommets under them to provide the correct clamp load and resiliency to seal the manifold top/cover and the grommets allow the cover to "breath" or "burp" in the case of a back fire to prevent damage to the intake manifold.

On the 1995 and later Northstars the intake manifold is a single injection molded plastic part and the injectors and fuel rail are outside the manifold. The top cover in this case is just a beauty cover/noise barrier.

On the 95 or later the top of the plastic tubes you see is actually the outside of the intake manifold. With the earlier 93 and 94 intake system the plastic tubes are totally inside the intake manifold.


Per your last observation. The "other" PCV tube you mentioned is the fresh air source that comes from the air inlet system There is no vacuum on that line since it is tied into the fresh air inlet system ahead of the throttle blade.

The PCV system works on two modes. At any throttled condition..i.e...when engine vacuum is present.... the PCV system allows fresh air into the engine thru the fresh air tube ahead of the throttle blade. The vacuum at the PCV valve draws the crankcase vapors into the intake manifold to be burned. The PCV valve acts as a one way flow valve with an orifice in the vacuum direction. When the engine is unthrottled...i.e..there is no engine vacuum...the crankcase vapors are free to flow under their own pressure into the fresh air tube and the vacuum side of the system, past the PCV valve.

It sounds like your PCV system is OK from what you said. Double check that the fresh air tube from the non-PCV valve side is unrestricted....disconnect and try blowing into the tube. You should hear the air exiting into the fresh air duct.


The leak you are looking for is possibly on the outer surface of one of the cam covers that is dripping on the exhaust manifold(s). Since the left/front cam cover is relatively open and visible I would assume a leak on the left side of the engine onto the exhaust would be readily visible. Go to the right side/rear cam cover and look with a mirror and flashlight along the outer cam cover joint to the cylinder head. This will be on the backside of the engine, toward the firewall. That is really the only place oil can leak onto the exhaust manifold from the top side.

Get the car on a hoist. The exhaust pipe from the left/front bank to the rear/right bank goes under the engines oil pan at the rear of the engine. A leak from the case halves, rear main seal or and oil filter adapter leak that is following the split line of the crankcase halves can drop onto the exhaust at that point. The pipe should be discolored and show signs of burned oil if the source of the smoke/smell is in this area. If it is then it would be best to clean the block thoroughly with spray cleaner and use the ultraviolet dye test to determine the actual source of the leak.

Just FYI....any "dry" intake manifold will look oily and have deposits inside of the runners and plenum....just most people never see the inside of the manifold because few manifolds let you take the top cover off. A dry intake is a port fuel injected manifold....all the runners transfer or distribute is air so oily deposits can accumulate. A wet manifold distributes air and fuel(as with a carburetor or throttle body injection) and the constant flow of fuel will wash any deposits away. The Northstar intake (as are most any of the convoluted, tuned, individual runner systems) has a large plenum with a lot of "bathtubs" to collect condensed vapors. More conventional cast intakes are typically all down hill to the cylinders from the throttle body/carb. There is a lot of uphill in the flowpath for the tuned intakes to trap condensates. These facts probably explain why the local experts are dumbfounded by your observations.

Al Cline


:Looking for a very evasive, slight, but smelly oil drip in my '94
:Concours, I drove (normally) up a steep mountain grade in an
:effort to locate the source from the smoke from under the hood
nce I parked and shut off the engine. (As a rule, this is when
:it shows up best.) Again, not being able to find where the smoke
:was actually coming from, I removed the hard plastic cover from
:the top of the engine hoping to get a better look. I discovered
:that, underneath the cover as well down inside, around the
:injector plugs, etc. was covered in oil! It wasn't standing, but
:there were a few small puddles, especially in the cavities, etc.
:No one I've spoken with (including our local 'experts') has ever
:heard of anything like this, although I suspect some type of
:ventilation blockage, since the leak is at its most evident when
:the car is pulling a steep grade, which results in a loss of
:vacuum. The PCV valve in the rear valve cover is clear and strong
:vacuum is present. There is some suction from the front valve
:cover port when I remove the tube and place a finger over the
:grommet, but none in the line going to the vacuum source, which I
:assume is normal. Any advice will be much appreciated. I've
:been at this one for months! Thanks!

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artherd
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Report this Post03-16-2002 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for artherdClick Here to visit artherd's HomePageSend a Private Message to artherdDirect Link to This Post
Hi will, from http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/September_2000/Engine_Basics_IV.php

Comments? (did they issue an incorrect press releasse?)

Still looking for a 95+ intake. Perfer a 95, but 95-99 will do

Best!
Ben.


"There are a lot of reasons forfast burn chambers but one nice thing about them is that they become more resistant to detonation. A real world example is the Northstar engine from 1999 to 2000. The 1999 engine was a 10.3:1 compression ratio. It was a premium fuel engine. For the 2000 model year, we revised the combustion chamber, achieved faster bum. We designed it to operate on regular fuel and we only had to lower the compression ratio .3 to only 10:1 to make it work. Normally, on a given engine (if you didn't change the combustion chamber design) to go from premium to regular fuel, it will typically drop one point in compression ratio: With our example, you would expect a Northstar engine at 10.3:1 compression ratio, dropped down to 9.3:1 in order to work on regular. Because of the faster burn chamber, we only had to drop to 10:1. The 10:1 compression ratio still has very high compression with attendant high mechanical efficiency and yet we can operate it at optimum spark advance on regular fuel. That is one example of spark advance in terms of technology. A lot of that was achieved through computational fluid dynamics analysis of the combustion chamber to improve the swirl and tumble and the mixture motion in the chamber to enhance the bum rate.
"

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

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Will
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Report this Post03-16-2002 01:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by artherd:
Hi will, from http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/September_2000/Engine_Basics_IV.php

The info I have is from Alan Johnson. Since chamber changes can be subtle, he may have missed them unless he looked very closely. I'll look in my '95 and '97 manuals for the compression ratio.
If there are chamber changes, I'd like to know.
I hope Alan's low compression pistons don't screw the swirl/tumble characteristics.

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Will
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Report this Post03-16-2002 01:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Here is a post by Al Cline an engineer at Cadillac in the engine division which he did to another board today.

Link please?

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Will
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Report this Post03-16-2002 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post

Will

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quote
Originally posted by artherd:
I need a '95+ intake BAD! (my race computer won't work with the '94.)


Hmmm? Why not?

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artherd
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Report this Post03-16-2002 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for artherdClick Here to visit artherd's HomePageSend a Private Message to artherdDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Hmmm? Why not?

Well, actually, it probally would. But the way I want to run the fuel lines isn't compatable with the al intake (the injectors/'fuel rails' being encased entirely.) Plus, I need the '95 TB. Plus the dam phonelic spacers are broken on mine.

I'm going with Alan's computer too.

Low compression pistons? Just *what* are you planning, Will?

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

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