Just wondering, I was in my automotive class today (in high school) and i pulled out a 307 oldsmobile engine (engine was shot).... one of the things i had forgot was the oldmobile V-8's were BOP pattern, they would bolt right to tranny after remounting starter and making a flywheel.

how come people dont use these engines?
wieght difference or anything?

Whats the difference in the BOP 350 and he Chevy 350? Obviously the bolt pattern, what about internals and bolt ons? ie. Headers, Heads, Intake...? Were these engine available 4 bolt mains? Water passages different...?

I know there has to be a reason why people dont use these... make fiero conversions easyer and all you would have to do is flywheel work and starter mounting and engine mounts.... ? Engines are kindof rear but i think I can find a good running one fairly cheap

Kyle

hmm i just noticed that the 330-455 BOP engines use alot of the same parts, is it SB or BB? 455 sounds alot to be a SB, if it was .....

Also if these engine are SB is there any dimmention differences?

Kyle

I dont think they will bolt right up. I believe there are different BOP bolt patterns. If so an adapter is still needed.

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Jodi's Fiero

Buick/Oldsmobile/Pontiac bolt patterns are not the same as in the Fiero. As far as I know, BOP applies to rear wheel drive only.
Speed equipment availbility/Price is dictated by users. Chev Owners must buy more(because they are more aviailable and cheaper) Ford next and Mopars/BOP. Pontic has some speed equipment pricing and aviability breaks probably becaues of the Firebird.(buyers).

GOOD QUESTION!
About the only reason I can see for it is finding a good one. They are "plentiful" as they were made in NA,Great Britain and Australia, making the aftermarket market not too bad either, but finding one these days might be tough. Its the same or very close to the Rover V8 too. I think most sbc internals will work if you can find a block, crank and heads. I've been told 300 HP isn't too hard AND its LIGHTER than the Duke!!!!!
Reason enough if you ask me, now I just gotta find one.........

BOP is a tranny bolt pattern, not an engine. I am an expert with the P part of BOP. I have built many pontiac engines in the past 4 years. (thats how long I have owned my firebird). They were never classified as big blocks or small blocks, just pontiacs. The 265, 301, 326, 350, 389, 400, 421, 428 and the 455 are all cast out of the same size block. There are no parts in a chevy engine that will work in a pontiac engine, without alot of machining and custom parts. I have heard of using chevy big block rods (which are cheaper, and longer) and a shortened piston to achieve a more desirable rod to stroke ratio in 455's. I thought about building a 455 for my car, and using a toronado transaxle to mount it, but I didnt want to add all of that weight, and all of that money to a car that is probably faster the way it is right now. It also gets alot better gas mileage. Next summer Ill be building a multiport injected 455 that is estimated (by force fuel injection) at 600 crankshaft horsepower.
Thats all for now

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http://www.fieroX.com

BOP bolt patterns are for all RWD applications and the longitudinal FWD's, they use 14.25" flywheels, the pattern also allows for a extra inch outside of that big flywheel. Our cars use a standard FWD bolt pattern (and in some cases, RWD too) witch is not the BOP pattern and has nothing in common with it either. The biggest torque converters we can use are 10.25" with a 12" flywheel, the 14.25" is so big that it covers over all but the 2 bolts on the top of the pattern. Sorry to dissapoint you

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Matt D
1984 Indy Fiero (auto)
1985 2m4 4T60, DIS V6 3.1 to be turbocharged

As fieroX said there is only one size for a Pontiac engine and that is BIG.
When I first got my Fiero I wanted to put a Pontiac V8 engine in it, instead of a SBC, because I wanted a car that was all Pontiac. A few minutes with a tape measure on my 65 Catalina and I realized that it would require severe modifications to get it to fit if it was even possible.
The Pontiac engine is several inches longer and wider than a small block Chevy and the small block is already a tight fit especially lengthwise.

Sorry guys I was refering to the ALUMINUM BOP motors, hopefully my previous post makes a bit more sense now cause without that fact I know it sure didn't..........lol
Don't ask why I assumed that was what he was talking about but thats what I was talking about.......

I'm feeling much better now...........

By the way that's BOPC (Cadillac) and yes the aluminum V-8 bolts right on with no adapter. The problem is finding the engine, the good news is that they made a lot of aftermarket parts for them as people often raced this engine.

Here's the Australian equivelant Rover engine. They are plentiful and cheap and come in 3.5 ltr or 5.0 ltr. Parts are still plentiful here, performance goodies too. This one is bolted up to a Leyland Mini gearbox. Yep they even fit in a little Mini.

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My Old Fiero | Accessories

Hey Aus is that V8 Sitting on some kind of weird aussie milkcrate???

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............Aluminum............

lol

We run a 215Cu in (BOP) olds motor in the back of a corvair , running a marine grind cam (read running backwards)

Great motor , but on this side of the pond expensive to make go fast...well really fast. They weigh 320lbs complete and can push 300hp without too much trouble. Can be stroked to 5.0ltrs as well.

I think this post started off reffering to an IRon BOP ...Ewww... I'm sure there are guys out there who have pulled some impressive #'s from them , but I'm also pretty sure they have had to pay for that HP. SBC is just cheaper to make power out of

JM

Buick Olds and Pontiac V8s are all totally different motors and share no parts.
The Buick motors are the lightest by far, especially the Buick 350 that weighs in at only 425 lbs. about 75 lbs lighter than a Chevy 350. Of course the 215 alum V8 is the lightest of all, weighs about what a 4 cyl iron moror does.

Bruce
BQUICK

Buick alloy V-8 = land rovers V8 same motor updated and still in new land rovers in 3.5,4.0 and 5.0 sizes!!!!! unsure if it bolts up same as GM models or if ethor will bolt in to our cars without a adpter plate

SAME motor Jack Brabham won F-1 champ in 66 and 67 with custom heads by REVCO single OHC,
only GM motor to win a F-1 race
hey Aus can REVCO heads still be had ?????

in iron blocks buick's 455 was smaller and lighter than a 350 chevy,a stageI had more power TOOO but hard to adpt

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Question wonder and be wierd

GM sold the design and tooling of the 215 cube alloy Buick V8 to Rover in 1964. It was put in the Rover P5, instantly changing a slow boring car to the darling of English royalty. Great motor. Originally a 3.5, enlarged to 3.9, then 4.0 (not really), 4.6, and 5.0.

The B-O-P bolt pattern is the same. The B-O-P motors are different. All the motors (for each div) uses the same block, so a 287-cube Poncho dating from 1955 will accept a Super-Duty 455 without modification (although a tranny swap is in order).

Hey guys it sounds like you are mis-using the term B.O.P.
General Motors Bill of Process(B.O.P.)is a term used for common systems.
In the case of the currant GM powertrain BOP engines the 3800 engine is used in multiple divisions chevy, Pontiac,Buick ect.
same thing goes for the new Ecotec four cyl. engine it is used in more than one division.
Saturn,Chevy and Pontiac all use the same engine with no changes in bolt pattern.
Engines from 20 or so years ago do not fall under Gm Bop as most divisions still had the ability to make certain things brand specific.
See Ya
Wiz

I don't know what that engine is sitting on actually. Yes REPCO heads can still be bought. Repco is a pretty large organisation these days and still makes everything the used to.

BOP as said stands for buick olds pontiac it does refer to the bolt pattern. Summit and Jegs used to sell the adapter for mating BOP engines to chevy trans and vise versa. don't know if they still do or not. Wouldn't do any good for a Fiero..... way different yet.

Oldsmobile rockets were quite the engine in there day. My 55 holiday 88 has a 324 with a whopping 202 HP LOL kind of a joke now but was pretty good for its day. If my 55 wasn't original down to its jack and owners manual I would be putting the LS1 in there instead

bop = buick/olds/pontiac been that way for many years

quote Originally posted by ckwizard109: Hey guys it sounds like you are mis-using the term B.O.P. General Motors Bill of Process(B.O.P.)is a term used for common systems. In the case of the currant GM powertrain BOP engines the 3800 engine is used in multiple divisions chevy, Pontiac,Buick ect. same thing goes for the new Ecotec four cyl. engine it is used in more than one division. Saturn,Chevy and Pontiac all use the same engine with no changes in bolt pattern. Engines from 20 or so years ago do not fall under Gm Bop as most divisions still had the ability to make certain things brand specific. See Ya Wiz

A case of new acronym/old acronym. Kinda like engine sizes. The 5.7 litre V8 was called a 350 for years longer than you (or I for that matter) have been alive. It really threw me for a loop the first time I heard it called a 5.7.

ok history time 215 alloy v8 was never in a pontiac early tempests had 4 or v6 or 326v8

215 was used in olds F-85 and buicks only and only for a few years around 62 but there was a turbo version!!!!!
BOP and caddy tooo was just used with th-350 and th-400 auto trans only after 65 or so
I had a olds vista wagon with the dyno-auto trans and they had a different bolt pattern from the 350-400 autos and wouldnot bolt up
chevys had a other different bolt pattern
back in 62 the 215 alloy V-8 DIDNOT use the later BOP pattern I am not sure if stick's are same as auto pattern back in 62!!!
215 alloy guts DONOT match later motors
anyway buick made 3 or 4 different big V-8 70 model thin wall was last and best in 350 400 455 sized motors esp stage I motors used in first GSX in 70
early 60's nail heads were used in hot rods because they were narrow and fit eazy for a big block 330 and 401
mid 60 buick had a different big V-8 430
so different years gut may not match and none will work in small 215 alloy motor

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Question wonder and be wierd

I stand corrected!
I forgot about the Buick,Olds,Pontiac acronym.
Two completely different terms.
See Ya
Wiz

quote Originally posted by ray b: ok history time 215 alloy v8 was never in a pontiac early tempests had 4 or v6 or 326v8

Straight 6, not V6. Other than that, it sounds about right.

One more thing.....the 3800 motors are derived from Buick motors. Yes it is corporate but it will always be a Buick.

Tough motors....a guy in TX rented a Regal with a NA 3800 (1998) and put a big shot of NOS on and thrashed the thing all weekend including the strip ....ran 13s
Then returned it Monday morning....hehe

Bruce
BQUICK

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Straight 6, not V6. Other than that, it sounds about right.

Okay, ACTUAL history time.

For those that don't know, the early Tempest had a front engine, rear transaxle setup, vaguely similar to a new Corvette. The car was also alot smaller than normal and classed as a compact.
The early Tempest's only had the 4 (based on the early pontiac v8. Actually, in '61 they even used the v8 crank) and a v8.
In 1961 and 62 Pontiac did stick the Buick 215 in their Tempests. In '63 the car got bigger, so they put the 326 in it. In '64 they changed the car completely and made the 389 an option.

Here's a page on the history of the aluminum Buick/Olds/rover V8 and some of the car's it was put in. http://members.tripod.com/~RoverSD_1/v8-1.html

quote Originally posted by ray b: ok history time 215 alloy v8 was never in a pontiac early tempests had 4 or v6 or 326v8 215 was used in olds F-85 and buicks only and only for a few years around 62 but there was a turbo version!!!!! BOP and caddy tooo was just used with th-350 and th-400 auto trans only after 65 or so I had a olds vista wagon with the dyno-auto trans and they had a different bolt pattern from the 350-400 autos and wouldnot bolt up chevys had a other different bolt pattern back in 62 the 215 alloy V-8 DIDNOT use the later BOP pattern I am not sure if stick's are same as auto pattern back in 62!!! 215 alloy guts DONOT match later motors anyway buick made 3 or 4 different big V-8 70 model thin wall was last and best in 350 400 455 sized motors esp stage I motors used in first GSX in 70 early 60's nail heads were used in hot rods because they were narrow and fit eazy for a big block 330 and 401 mid 60 buick had a different big V-8 430 so different years gut may not match and none will work in small 215 alloy motor

BOP engines with slushbox before 1965 used a fluid-flywheel 4-speed auto.

The Tempest had the Indy-Four (half a 389) or the 215. In 1963, the 215 was replaced by the 326, which was actually a 336. In 1964 it became a real 326. No V6.

The Buick Skylark & Olds F-85 used the Buick 225 cube V6 or 215 cube V8 (in 1963, a 300 cube was availible)

That 225 cube V6 was sold to Kaiser-Jeep in 1967. GM bought it back in 1974, enlarged it to 231 cubes, and put it in the 1975 Skyhawk. Today, this is the 3800 V6.

Thanks Pontiaddict for the link. I've had my TR8 since 1982 and have collected all kinds of info on it and the Buick Special/Rover engine. Haven't seen that site though, until now. My favorite resource is "Tuning Rover V8 Engines" by David Hardcastle. It has everything from twin turbos, blowers, and quad Weber carbs to a 180 degree flat crankshaft and an adapter for a Hewland gearbox.

LS1 wrote >> Summit and Jegs used to sell the adapter for mating BOP engines to chevy trans and vise versa<<

Yep, they still do. I got one this spring to adapt my LT1 to a THM325 trans. Very inexpensive, I might add.

David Breeze