I couldn't believe half the teeth were missing, I believe that once 1 tooth goes, it screws everything up and it just starts like dominos, I was in 3rd gear doing about 45mph when it died on me, high torque and it ripped until the 7th planet from the sun was distroyed.
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11:12 PM
Feb 26th, 2002
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
My son and I are doing the same to his 88 Coupe. No teeth were broken, but a whole lotta lash between the two gears. I used the "tilt the engine down" method, but it would have been easier to drop the entire cradle. Unfortunately I only have one engine dolley and my 3.4L is sitting on it right now.
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11:53 AM
PFF
System Bot
Master_Sushi Member
Posts: 1873 From: Oakville, ON Registered: Apr 2000
Originally posted by avengador1: So what's the problem? You still have some teeth left on the gear.LOL Was that thing running like that? WOW.
That reminds me of something funny. I had an 88 pontiac lemans that had the timing belt go out (got striped). I noticed the teeth on the belt were a little better on the other side. I just fliped the belt and drove the car for another few thousand miles . Great beater car.
Oh, good luck with your work Back On Holiday. Looks like you know what your doing.
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12:01 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
Update, removal of Gears! I want to thank Ogre, his explaination has made this possible. The Gear with 2 1/4 tapped holes in the metal part surrounding the Cam.
heres the Gear Puller attached, timing gear is coming out.
Heres ME with my dirty, but warm garage cloths on.
With all the digging I did for that article, I'm glad it helped someone.
If it's still apart, could you get one more picture? I'd like one with the gears off to point out where the oil galery plug is. It looks like a small freeze plug. I think that's it near the top of the cam gear but can't say for sure.
According to the GM TSB on the gears, the plug is suposed to get a small hole punched in it to improve oil flow to the gears. (size is in the article) That extra bit of oil should improve the life of any type gears used.
(Worst thing that can happen is someone punches a freeze plug instead of the oil plug and has to replace it.... Not dificult but annoying.)
When I get a chance, I'll add a link to this thread to the cave... This should come in really handy for people.
------------------ 11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.
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11:04 PM
Mar 1st, 2002
GTDude Member
Posts: 9056 From: Keysville, Virginia, USA Registered: Nov 2001
Theogre has the correct way to remove the gear....however I use a shortcut cause I work on commission. I break off the fiber part of the cam gear, being careful not to break the cast iron cam retainer behind the gear.....easy to break. Then I use an air chisel to chisel off the metal sleeve that is left. Not for the faint of heart!!!!! Prob done 50 or more this way, but theogre definitely has the recommended way.
Phil, in the photos above... is that plug that is partly hiding behind the top of the cam gear the oil galery plug GM is talking about in the TSB? Looks like it would about have to be it.
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07:25 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
The Ogre, I purchased a new cam retainer part, and it seems to have several 1mm -2mm holes in it where the original doesn't. i'll take several pics tommorrow for you of that and where the frost plug is, or the area surrounding the area of the cam/crank.
sorry, very tired!
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11:23 PM
FieroPerformance Member
Posts: 435 From: Cincinnati, OH, USA Registered: Feb 2001
Originally posted by FieroPerformance: Houston we have a problem.
Problem???
Ogre, I see now about the frost plug, including a close up. Also, check out the cam retainer pics, the old on on the cam still, the new one on the table has holes. Maybe better oiling?
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10:43 AM
PFF
System Bot
Art Doyle Member
Posts: 59 From: Carrollton,TX,USA Registered: Nov 2001
The holes in the retainer are likely to help with the oiling of the retainer area.
I'd say the closup of the plug says that's the oil galery plug. (the lower one that hiding behind the gear... ) Notice how the block has been staked in 4 spots around it... you'd never do that to a frost plug.(I'm not sure if the upper one is another oil passage plug or what... It's not staked as far as I can see. It's in a weird spot...)
Do you still need the hole in the plug with the use of the new style of thrust plate? hard to say. There will be more oil going to the hub area with the new plate, but does it still need the hole? I honestly couldn't tell you.
One last thing... can you post the source and part numbers for those gears and the new retainer?
Art,
overloading the cam gear with a bad oil pump or distributor won't help anything... 87-88 motors gain in that they don't have distributors but there's no guarantee the things still won't quit at some point.
It's a combination of heat, age, cam load, and other things. How often the oil is changed is likely also a factor.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 03-02-2002).]
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08:53 PM
Mar 3rd, 2002
Fiero_Freak Member
Posts: 1125 From: St. Louis, MO USA Registered: Oct 2000
Back to the top... I'd like the get those numbers and a source on the gears and retainer. I think I may be in the same boat. Thanks again on the advice theogre. I'll be into that car in a few weeks...as soon as the garage gets wired and dry-walled.
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10:25 PM
Mar 9th, 2002
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
From GM PARTS Counter.. Part Numbers are, new plate for cam and washer: 12508079 Seal for Crank/timing cover: 10243247
Timing gear set (aluminum cam gear and steel crank gear) bought off Carparts.com a division of JCWhitney, Set, 2.5-R (151) ENG; 1982-86 Alum. Includes 2524 & 2537 • Usually ships in 7 - 10 business days. MELLING Part Number: 2538S Price as of 3/9/02: $35.98 Took about 3 weeks to get from the factory.
Also, tapping the cam with the 3/8 16 bottoming tap is too small, had to drill and use a 7/16 20 (I believe) but got the gear halfway on and stripped the threads. had to run out and get a 1/2 20 tap and hardware, I recommend using this first as it has more hold, don't even bother with the 7/16 tap, go upto the 1/2 20 it will work better. My dad ground down the tip of the tap to get an extra 1 thread in the cam also. heres some pics.... next post!
[This message has been edited by Back On Holiday (edited 03-09-2002).]
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07:55 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
BOH, If I didn't already, thanks for posting all this. It confirms/modifies what I have posted and helps allot of people. If I didn't add it already, this thread will be added to the cam stuff in my cave. (hard to keep track of all my changes any more.)
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12:24 AM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by theogre: BOH, If I didn't already, thanks for posting all this. It confirms/modifies what I have posted and helps allot of people. If I didn't add it already, this thread will be added to the cam stuff in my cave. (hard to keep track of all my changes any more.)
Thank you, using your info as a guide helped out alot.
Only problem that I had was pushing the gear on, using a piece of threaded rod earlier, when I went back to the hardware store I got a hardened bolt with a allen type connector on the end, make sure its short enough to fit a socket over, since I was using a nut that was 3/4 in size, it almost is an exact fit for a 19mm socket, the socket fit right over the allen head...see pic. when I tryed using a regular socket wrench also, it would push the gear on crooked, I ended up trying the impact wrench on it, on the low 1 of 3 setting, turned down the compressors output so that it was just giving the wrench a "little" juice, so that it didn't rip the threads. using this way was easyier, but I was really worried I would rip some more threads like I did with the 7/16 ones. part of that resulted in having to switch upto power 2 and tapping the gun, I shouldv'e recharged the tank and used setting 1 more, but if I had to do it next time, go right to the 1/2 20 size.
[This message has been edited by Back On Holiday (edited 03-10-2002).]
Some of the dificulty with pressing the gear may be the gear itself. The center hole may be very slightly tighter than the OE gear.
At least now it's on and we've all got a much better idea of how the procedures work and what to watch out for. Hopefully it will be usefull to others.
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02:33 PM
Bob Englert Member
Posts: 535 From: Greensboro, NC, USA Registered: Mar 2000
I thought I remember hearing that you should put the new metal gear in the oven for a while and heat it up some before installing. I think this should expand the gear a little and make it easier to install on the cam.
Yes, warming the gear to make it expand makes sense... I'm not sure how hot you'd have to get it to do any good, or the safest way to do it... You can't get it too hot or you actually damage the gear.
The oven would be the only way to heat it evenly.
You'd want good oven mits for sure.
Keeping it hot long enough to get it to the motor should be fun. You've got to keep the heat in it, without burning/melting whatever you cary it with. Most people don't have a stove in their work areas... So it has to be insulated or it will cool pretty fast.
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07:40 PM
85Josh Member
Posts: 425 From: Louisville, Ky USA Registered: Feb 2001
When I put mine in, I boiled it in clean 30-weight oil. Use a double boiler, and heat it till the oil just starts to smoke. It stinks, but the oil retains its heat long enough to get the gear on. By the way, I appreciate all the pics, looks like the removal went better for you than mine did.
------------------ 85 2M4(Lil' Bit)
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08:36 PM
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by theogre: Yes, warming the gear to make it expand makes sense... I'm not sure how hot you'd have to get it to do any good, or the safest way to do it... You can't get it too hot or you actually damage the gear.
The oven would be the only way to heat it evenly.
You'd want good oven mits for sure.
Ever hear of a microwave?
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11:03 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
don't think you want to be putting a METAL gear into the microwave oven.
as for heating it, we used a propane torch and just kept circling the center, plus aluminum conducts heat really good so it was evenly dispersed. The oven idea would be perfect, except my wife would never let me do that with her 1 year old oven, the stench of oil would never come out.
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11:53 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
The Ogre, its a shame we couldn't have coordinated and had you participate in person, I just realized that you are only about 1 1/2hrs south of me, hop on the new delaware rte1, get off onto 896 and follow it through Newark, and 20 minutes after newark your at my house.
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11:56 PM
Mar 12th, 2002
blakeinspace Member
Posts: 5923 From: Fort Worth, Texas Registered: Dec 2001
Loads of fun, I use a power steering pulley installer, drill a 3/8 hole and in it goes, without heating. Boiling in oil is only for fiber gears (saturates the gear with oil for long life)
Was that thing running like that? WOW.
11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.
honest... I was joking!
