I was considering the purchase of the irm turbo kit, instead of an engine swap, my v6 gt only has 60k on it. Anyone have any comments on this kit, such as fit and finish as well as performance? It looks pretty easy to install.
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10:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jun 10th, 2001
bcwawright Member
Posts: 125 From: columbus, GA, USA Registered: May 2001
I have an IRM turbo kit on my car and it is awesome! I had a freshly rebuilt 2.8 with the heads ported and polished....the upper intake and throttle body were bored out by Darrell Morse(excellent work and made a difference)....the complete plenum was polshed by Extrude Hone.....complete MSD ignition system with Taylor wires....RC Engineering FI....and a cold air intake system from a Honda which was modified......and no catalytic converter.. and an adjustable built by Darrell Morse....also using a Turbonetics blow off valve and a Behr custom intercooler. Since I'm over 300hp I used 7.5 to 1 forged pistons. You can get even more hp and tueability by going to Electromotive's TEC II engine control system. I also installed a high pressure oil pump and windage tray from the Fiero Store. If you buy the IRM see if they will sell you the kit less the ECM($800) because I have a new Stage II ECM that I will sell you for $400.
I have the Design One Systems Stage II turbo System. bcwawright where did you put the intercooler? I have one, but can't figure out the best position for it. Have you had your setup dyno'ed? I have a Stage II ECM and 3 bar map sensor and I am running lean so I have bought a CARTECH 200025 FPR to compensate during boost conditions. I haven't installed it yet, but hopefully it will help the problem. I only go lean under boost. Do you have some pictures of the setup with the intercooler installed. I have been asking around here for months to find someone with a intercooler, and this is the first person I have seen with one installed. Thanks.. I can't speak for IRM, but Design One Systems Turbo setup is considered pretty good. To rate it I would have to give it 3 out of 5 stars due to the lean condition I have encountered, and being unable to get Design One to help fix it, and no I am not flaming Design One just telling it the way it is in my case alone.
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01:41 PM
bcwawright Member
Posts: 125 From: columbus, GA, USA Registered: May 2001
HI Predator I forgot to state that I have a F355 rebody on my car and i have the intercooler mtd in the big openings at the drivers door and a big oil cooler in the passenger side door. I am also using an under drive pulley. I don't know about your kit but the ECM from IRM seems to be doing OK under boost.....you may need to go to bigger injectors......the ones you have may be maxing out....go to RC Engineerings website and they have some stuff to help you out. Also check out your fuel pressure....I have an adjustable fuel press reg that Darrell Morse builds and it is worth the money!!
That sounds like a really nice setup you got there. You should come to the Georgia Fiero Club meeting sometime and show everybody your car. I for one would love to see it. I will check your suggestions out. Thanks..
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05:17 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7410 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Predator Would love to come to one of your club meets. I'm in the process of putting a new interior in my car. Coy posted some pics he took of my car and they are under "Bruces Spyder" in the General Chat Foruim" it was posted 3 or 4 weeks ago. Someone asked about IRM and they still sell kits......as I said before I have a new STAGE 1 and a new Stage II ECM....the ECMs cost about $800ea and if you get kit less ECM I'll sell you one for $400.
I looked up the pictures, and all I can say is Nice, Nice, Nice, well you get the idea. I would love to see some pics of the engine compartment, and Turbo setup if you can at some point. I know the layout is different, but it might give me some ideas. Anyway beautiful car. If you want more information on the club just let me know, and keep us all posted on anything else you do to your car.
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10:17 PM
bcwawright Member
Posts: 125 From: columbus, GA, USA Registered: May 2001
Thanks for the compliments Predator We have no clubs down here maybe I can join yours. Please send info. There is a shop in Atlanta called Turbo Toms who has built a twin turbo 2.8....the only thing is he is involved in a aircraft engine project that is going to keep him booked up for at least a year......but you can go by his shop and he may be able to sell you something to cure your leaning out problem.
Bruce 88GT
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11:42 PM
Jun 11th, 2001
kslish Member
Posts: 1478 From: Womelsdorf, PA Registered: Apr 2000
Originally posted by Predator: I can't speak for IRM, but Design One Systems Turbo setup is considered pretty good.
Just so there is no confusion...the IRM turbo kit and the Design One kit is the same thing. I'm pretty sure the price is the same (unless it has changed recently) whether you get it through IRM or Design One. IRM mearly acts as a distributor or dealer for the kit.
I thought the IRM kit used the stock down pipe instead of a whole new exhaust like the Design One. But the kit I remember was the original IRM from many years (5-8?)ago when Design One didn't exist. Maybe they changed that or my memory is wrong...
I have been doing my homework on this subject and I've come to the conclusion that Predators' leaning out condition is caused by lack of fuel pressure and the inability of the ECM to compensate even with the map sensor.A boost pressure activated fuel pressure regulator from Summit or Vortech will do the trick.A vacuum line runs from anywhere on the manifold to the regulator,as soon as positive manifold pressure is sensed it adjust fuel pressure accordingly.Also,a more powerful fuel pump is also recommended.While your at it get "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell.This is the most highly recommended book on the subject and it has current information on todays computer controlled cars.This guy knows more about turbocharging than anyone else,and it covers everything.Have fun,go fast.
I bought a Cartech 200025 rising fuel presure regulator that is designed for after market turbo/supercharger setups. I haven't figured out how to install the thing yet, but I am working on it. Thanks..
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04:21 PM
kslish Member
Posts: 1478 From: Womelsdorf, PA Registered: Apr 2000
Originally posted by Alex4mula: I thought the IRM kit used the stock down pipe instead of a whole new exhaust like the Design One. But the kit I remember was the original IRM from many years (5-8?)ago when Design One didn't exist. Maybe they changed that or my memory is wrong...
The Design One/IRM kit uses the stock exhaust only if you have an automatic. With a stick, you get an all new custom stainless steel exhaust system (which is why the kit is cheaper for the auto tranny Fieros).
5-8 years ago the Design One kit used to be called the Miller-Woods Fiero turbo kit. Not sure what (if any) changes have been made to the kit over the years.
Interesting. I am not sure how old that is. It has simularities to the Design One kit, but it is in a different position. If that is the going price then it is cheaper too. The Design One kit is at http://www.design1systems.com That is the kit I have. I am producing 165 hp 207 ftlbs at the wheels according to the dyno, but I have the lean problems that one day I hope to get fixed, but it is looking bleak as to getting it fixed any time in the near future. The car is currently parked. The system is designed to work with a stock 2.8 so you don't have to build it up as long as the engine is in good shape. I have seen guys hear build up their engines to beat 165hp without a turbo, and a lot less expense so I am not sure if it is worth the money or not. If I had it to do over again I would not have bought it. The stage II kit is $3,800 dollars. I must admit I like the idea of the Turbo, and the added power is nice (if I could use it), but it has been nothing but a very expensive add on since I got it. I have over $5,000 dollars invested in the turbo system with the repairs I have had to have done, and I still can't even put the car under boost without worrying about frying my engine again. I have found another problem as well. The Turbo is collecting water in it. If it sits over night and I take the intake pipe off the Turbo is practically full of water. I don't think this is normal. I just spent $1,000 to have it rebuilt and put back on. I have emailed Ed at Engineered Performance to see what he will do about the water. The Turbo is under warrenty, but I am not sure if that inclues labor, and I can't afford another $500 to have it removed and put back on. My wife is p*ssed at me about all the money spent, and I can't even enjoy driving the car so I am what you would call the extreme bad case in this matter. If you want to go Turbo be sure to be ready to fork over some money, and the possibilities of major problems and expense. Unfortunatly I am not a great mechaninc like some others around here. If I was I would not have opted for a kit. Enough gripping.
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07:45 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7410 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by Predator: Interesting. I am not sure how old that is. It has simularities to the Design One kit, but it is in a different position.
I'm not sure if the IRM prices are accurate or not...that is a scan of an old catalog. I may be mistaken, but I believe the turbo position depends on whether you have an automatic or a stick.
I sympathize with Predator on his problems. A turbo can be a really expensive useless toy if you don't have the knowledge to troubleshoot it when needed.
In defense of Design One though, I believe Predator previously mentioned on this board that he purchased his kit second hand and not directly from Design One (even though it is a Design One kit). Buying a kit like that is risky....as I'm sure Predator has unfortunately learned.
Also, if there is anything wrong with an engine, the turbo will just make that problem more apparent ten times over. I'd personnally never strap a turbo on an engine with a significant amount of miles on it, but I'm just paranoid like that. I know a number of people that have many many miles on their Design One turbo kits and they haven't had any problems. Like any engine modification though, a turbo can be a risky proposition...your results may vary
I plan on eventually rebuilding my GT's 2.8 into a 3.2L stroker and then turbocharging it with the Design One kit. The rebuild will be done the turbo specifically in mind.
I wasn't meaning to sound like I was bashing Design Ones Kit in my previous post. If it sounded that way I apologize. You are correct in stating that I had bought the Turbo Kit second hand. That was a mistake I will always regret. The engine only has 26,000 miles on it so I assumed it could handle the Turbo, and so did Design One after I talked to them about it on the phone. I had Design One burn me a new updated computer chip, and I bought a high volume oil pump, and other various parts new from them to complete the kit. After I blew the head gaskets after installing the kit I had the Turbo professionally rebuilt after it started spewing smoke and the seals were bad. This was done all at the same time. The kit is as if I had bought it new now. I stated that I am an extreme case in bad luck on this, and I thought the guy should see both sides of the picture before jumping into installing a kit.
[ I sympathize with Predator on his problems. A turbo can be a really expensive useless toy if you don't have the knowledge to troubleshoot it when needed.]
I never indicated that I did not have any knowledge of troubleshooting. I know exactly what the problem is. I installed the kit myself correctly I might add with no help. My installation did not cause the problems I am experiencing. I took it to a professional to get it fixed when it blew my head gaskets. I found out that the injectors were dirty, and I already had a severe lean condition which this made worse to the point of having to have the head gaskets replaced. At that point I found out that even after all that I was still running severely lean under boost after the car was dyno tested. The ECM is supposed to compensate under boost, but it is not handling it. I have reported this problem to design one along with the dyno results, but have not heard back from them other than they would look at it. They are under no obligation or warranty to fix the ECM. I have since bought a Cartech 200025 FPR to fix the lean problem since the ECM is not doing it. I have worked with Design One through this whole process until now. Again, I am not bashing them, but stating it the way it is in my one case. I cannot recommend buying something that I have personally used that has been nothing but trouble since day one. You know the saying 1 out of 3 surveyed would buy it. I am the 1 that wouldn't. I am not trying to start something here, but I wanted to clarify a few things said.
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04:56 PM
bcwawright Member
Posts: 125 From: columbus, GA, USA Registered: May 2001
Hey Predator One of the best places to get a turbo rebuilt and even modified is Turbo Engineering Corp.......they do Indy, IMSA, and NHRA drag car turbos. The one they did for my japanese car has 50,000 miles on it and can still pump over 20lbs of boost. I may be pulling the borg-warner which comes with the IRM and Design One kits and going with a Turbnetics ball bearing blower which does not have the water cooling jacket. The Cartech adjustable fuel regulator is a really good unit....you just have to determine how much pressure you need under full boost. I strongly recommend that you upgrade the ignition and make sure the fuel pump and fuel lines and rails are up to the task....I would even go to higher flow fuel filter.....of course all this is only necessary if you are trying to get the max hp out of your 2.8. You may want to call Turbo Tom's shop and go by there to try and get some help. In my opinion forged pistons are a must if you want to boost beyond 11lbs. I am fixing to install a Electromotive TEC which handles the complete ignition and fuel systems...will let you know(if I don't forget) how it turns out.
I've been researching the idea of a turbo install for some time now, After having my nitrous for about a year I've decided I want the Power all the time. I looked at all the kit's and decided to try it myself. However I was searching the web and came across this company, anybody heard of them? http://wwnet.fi/amworks/gallery/fieroturbo.htm http://wwnet.fi/amworks/gallery/fieroturbobtype.htm
They have a sweet looking air to water intercooler for the fiero, but you would have to install the turbo in the same location they did.(about halfway down the page) http://wwnet.fi/amworks/gallery/customw.htm
------------------ -Brian, Toolmaker Lincoln, NE 87' GT-Galaxy silver mettalic, Eibach springs, RSM side scoops, Mr Mikes leather, 70hp NOS, 17" Mille Miglia's, Turbo install in progress.
Nice looking kit. Thanks for the references guys. I am not planning on running over 10 lbs boost. I will probably over time add better fuel and ignition management. Right now I would be tickled to death just to get it running right . Thanks for the Turbo Tom reference. I will keep that in mind. I have been looking for pictures of intercooler placement. It looks like it would sit down low on the firewall on the drivers side of the transmission. I have been think about putting my intercooler there. There is barely enough room, but it would be out of most of the heat, and the air coming up from the road would hit it. The placement of the turbo is close to where mine is. With the exhaust rerouted to the trunk side I have additional room on the firewall side. Update from Design One: I talked to them yesterday, and they want me to send them my EPROM to try some changes to help with my problems. I have my fingers crossed, and will post an update on it when I get the chip back. My intercooler is the same shape as that one except it is not water cooled. Thanks for the ideas guys..
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[This message has been edited by Predator (edited 06-13-2001).]
Originally posted by sluppy123: "I've been researching the idea of a turbo install for some time now, After having my nitrous for about a year I've decided I want the Power all the time."
>Hey sluppy, I'm wondering what you're going to do with your NOS kit. Thanks!!
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03:57 PM
bcwawright Member
Posts: 125 From: columbus, GA, USA Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by kslish: I plan on eventually rebuilding my GT's 2.8 into a 3.2L stroker and then turbocharging it with the Design One kit. The rebuild will be done the turbo specifically in mind.
I might be mistaken, so tell me if I'm right or wrong. I'm not sure how the 3.2L stroker is built, but doesn't the word stroker imply high compression ratios, I know it does in the 383 stroker. And if you put a turbo on a high compression engine, then you won't be able to run pump bought fuel anymore right? From my understanding to run SC, or Turbo you need a lower compression of 8.5:1 or lower, otherwise you'll need race fuel to keep the engine from pinging. I could be wrong though. I've just started learning a lot of the ins and outs of engeines in the last couple of months, but this is what my current knowledge leads me to believe.
Yes there the same kit. I have a stick and it included complete exhaust except for the stock manifolds. got crossover, downpipe, cat, 'T' muffler and tail pipes. I think the only diff in stage II is it compensates for higher altitudes, prob in ECM chip.
