I had a marvelous thought today:

The conventional method of installing rear anti-roll bar on an '84-'87 car is to bolt it to the bottom of the cradle and put the links through drilled out but pre-existing holes in the control arms.

I have a set of '88 strut mount roll-bar brackets hanging around, and noticed that if I put the right '88 bracket on the rear of the left '87 strut (the bracket goes on the front of the strut in the '88), that I can move the anti-roll bar rearward about 3-4 inches, and connect to the bracket with LONG links.
This does two things:
1) lengthens the links from ~3" to ~11". This results in less angularity of the links and more direct application of the stabilizer bar's force.
2) it moves the effective acting point of the sway bar from 3/4 of the way out the control arm to directly on the hub carrier, increasing effective anti-roll bar stiffness by ~40% (!)
That's like going up a bar size just be changing attachment points.

The '88 brackets, while not readily available, are available from www.kickhill.com and www.heldmotorsports.com

I have installed the brackets on my car, and will fabricate the links this week. I should be able to convert to the new setup (with rod-end links--- screw polyurethane) this weekend.

Just thought I'd share.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-04-2001).]

I had a custom bar made for my car that has the pickup points farther outboard than the existing hole locations using rod ends;works great,better response/action of the bar.
The bar size is .750 with an arm of 5",along with 330# rear springs,it still rides decent but is very well controlled.
You're lucky to have those parts laying around.

Where is your bar attached to the suspension?

That's an awefully short arm length. I'd be concerned about angularity with arms that short.
Because of the smaller diameter, it's approximately as stiff as the stock 7/8" '84-'87 front bar.

Not too sure about the rod ends. I know they are a far superior product than urethane. But they wont hold up on the street. You will have to inspect them often.

Don't frown Will. I'm interested... I recently looked up the 'move the front bar to the back' and a new rear bar from addco and was dissapointed to see the response loss due to the mount points. I was going to the 'yard' last Sun. to look for pieces for a couple of projects and was going to measure some other bars for the rear. I got there 45 min b4 they closed on Sun and didn't get to look at any. I will see if I can get a picture of the '88 bar to visualize the mounting. Great find!

An '88 rear bar attaches to the front surfaces of the rear cradle mount pads, immediately in front of the muffler.

The arms reach through the suspension above the axle and have 3-4" links connecting them to the brackets on the fronts of the struts.

For my application, the left bracket is used on the rear of the right strut, and vice-versa for the right bracket.

You can find the brackets at http://www.heldmotorsports.com/88acc.htm
they're about $66, or approximately half the cost of a new bar.

Rod ends last fine on the street.
The Chassis Shop ( www.chassisshop.com ) sells small boots/rubber-washer-like-things that keep crap out of rod-ends and extend their lifetimes indefinitely.

I told myself that I needed to get those rubber boots when I put the bar on,that was last August,thanks for reminding me.
Even if we did have to replace those often,it'd be better than the bind,jerky ride from the urethane outer bushings.
Oh,and the links go to a hole I drilled in the control arm about one inch inboard from the balljoint.

[This message has been edited by lowCG (edited 06-04-2001).]

Will, got any pics, i am very interested.

------------------

Patrick Szewczyk
1987 Fiero GT, 5 spd, sunroof CDF clutch, Koni's all around, Ground Control coilovers in the rear, lowered 2" -dropped spindles-front, poly bushings: control arms-sway bars-cradle-motor-dogbone, rear sway bar, pioneer cd player, 180 stat, 176-166 fan switch, MSD Coil, Rodney Dickman's short shifter, bushings, etc..., 11.25" big brakes w/Ebrake, k&n filter, I have a 3800SC SII that's goin in soon, + 17x7.5 MiM Venezias wheels + 225/45/17 and 235/40/17's ---------------Also have a 1996 3800 Series II 25k MOTOR FOR SALE.

Awesome Will! I'm working on a rod-end setup for the 88s too. (funny how we N* guys keep coming back to the same issues

PS: thread the bar's arms, then you can have a truely *ajustable* swaybar!

PPS: use stainless rod ends, pack with grease, then put the little rubber/urathane cozies on to keep the crap out. Should out-last the car.

Best!
Ben.

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by Will: The conventional method of installing rear anti-roll bar on an '84-'87 car is to bolt it to the bottom of the cradle and put the links through drilled out but pre-existing holes in the control arms.

Maybe that's why some people have had problems with link bolts breaking. I installed a stock front bar on the rear of my '85; however, I did not use existing control arm holes because they really don't align with the bar ends. I drilled new holes -- I hope properly aligned. Of course, that moves the attachment point farther inward on the control arm.

Will I'm very interested also. I was having a conversation about this topic this afternoon with Visceral. Pics would be very nice.

Somebody take some pics.....having a hard time visualizing. A pic speaks a thousand words. I want to do this to my 87 GT. Please. Thanks.

Phil

------------------
GTDude 87 Fiero GT 3.4
25 years GM experience

The installation your working on isn't a bad way to do it...

Keep in mind that you could need a huge bar up front to keep the ballance right.

Front is supposed to be stiffer than rear.

If you are increasing the effective stiffness in rear, either with bar size or by mounting method, you'll have to do the same up front. To get it right, you may end up having to use a thinner rear bar with this mounting method.

I've seen some really long linkages sold in the parts stores. They are mainly for lifted vehicles. If you don't already have parts, that might be something to look at.

Wow, talk about a blast from the past.

I used lengths of 1" (outside) 1/8" wall square aluminum tubing for the links, front and rear. The rod ends I used were 1/2" shank and hole, and were 0.625" wide. The Chassis Shop boots were 0.0625" thick, which comes out to 0.750 for rod end with a boot on each side. The inside dimension of the aluminum tubing is ~3/4". It makes a nearly perfect fit.

The relative stiffness of the f/r swaybars is a much more complicated topic than "front should be stiffer than rear". It involves relative heights of front and rear roll centers, driver's preferences, etc.

For a while I drove the car with stock front bar/attachments & rod-end links with the rear bar setup I described above. I was using Dunlop GT Qualifier tires 235/60-15 front and 245/60-15 rear. I loved the way it responded, although it was a little short on rear damping. I even drove it for a while with NO front bar. That was even better, but the front wallowed too much front for my tastes. Anyway, as a result I know that I could like it with even more rear bar.

The car had limit oversteer, which is too be expected of a car with a rear weight bias and approximately equal tire sizes.
Now that I have the Northstar in, I'm going to try 215/55-16 front tires and 255/50-16 rears (Kumho Ecsta Supras).

I am going to try to do Will's setup. Gotto find some rear 88 strut brackets( maybe Held). Someone I know said some optioned Berettas(indy's, early z's) have that strut bracket in the front also. Will do research on this. Gonna pickup a 96 z28 hollow front sway bar tomorrow which is 1.25" or 1.33" diameter. Someone told me I can oxy torch the curved portions and match the same profile to the fiero's and it will fit. Thew heat won't alter the bar's strength at all. Then just gotto pickup some new busings and endlinks and things should be cool. I have a rear bar below the cradle already but I wanna try it above for the extra clearence. With the 11.25" brake setup and the drop spindles with stock springs I have a front that could use a little more roll control. 1.25" bar should do it. OREIF has an 1.25 on his and he love's it. Both our cars ride like trucks though, but who cares each their own. Going to the WOW show in chicago this weekend. Who's coming?

------------------

Patrick Szewczyk
1987 Fiero GT, 5 spd, sunroof CDF clutch, Koni's all around, Ground Control coilovers in the rear, lowered 2" -dropped spindles-front, poly bushings: control arms-sway bars-cradle-motor-dogbone, rear sway bar, pioneer cd player, 180 stat, 176-166 fan switch, MSD Coil, Rodney Dickman's short shifter, bushings, etc..., 11.25" big brakes w/Ebrake, k&n filter, I have a 3800SC SII that's goin in soon, + 17x7.5 MiM Venezias wheels + 225/45/17 and 235/40/17's ---------------Also have a 1996 3800 Series II 25k MOTOR FOR SALE.

quote Originally posted by VISCERAL: Someone told me I can oxy torch the curved portions . Thew heat won't alter the bar's strength at all

that REALLY doesn't sound right at all.

Ok I meant heat up the bar evenly on the curved portion and rebend to match our bar's profile,

I mounted my bar similar to what Will is describing. Had it that way for about a year, but I haven't driven the car hard that much. I have noticed that on the street it tends to have lots of oversteer. Really, really lots. I have a stiffer bar on the front, stock front bar on rear mounted behind the cradle. I used 88 shock mount points ojn the rear of the strut.

This past weekend I entered my first autocross, juet to see how it would do. I was the first car to spin out on the sweep.

I think it is going to be hard to balance the front/rear bars with this arrangement. I'm thinking of fabing an adjustable slide onthe rear bar mount so I can move it more outboard (tubular arms). Anyone had any experience with this sort of thing?

quote Originally posted by honegod: that REALLY doesn't sound right at all.

Actually it does. AddCo bars at least are all cold formed 1014 steel. Heating doesn't hurt them.

I'm working on pics. May have them in a week or two.

quote Originally posted by wcapman: I have noticed that on the street it tends to have lots of oversteer. Really, really lots.

Just food for thought: I have the same size bar on both the front and rear. I did not use the '88 setup that everyone here is describing to mount this bar, I just mounted it on the cradle, swung the bar up to mark holes for the control arms, drilled new holes, and used very short endlinks so they wouldnt scrape on the ground. All endlinks and brackets are poly. The endlinks on the rear are about 3" long. The holes where the bar is attached is *about* directly between the pivot point (bushings) and the center of the control arm. This setup greatly stiffened the rear while lessening understeer, but the car does not have any dangerous oversteer at all. Yes, I can get it to slide easier now, but it will understeer (just not as much) under most conditions.

I think that because I have a shorter effect arm length with the rear swaybar it helps keep the oversteer at bay. if I were to use a longer bar (or bend the bar's arms so the bar was longer) and drill holes closer to the outside of the control arm, I suspect I would have oversteer problems.

I did the same thing that FieroJoe has done. My only problem that I have with mine was that my end links are to long and hit the CV boot so I have to find some shorter ones and put the sway bar back on. The handling with it on is excellent. Got my whole set up for $25.

Thanks Ken

------------------

AOL=MooCow888

When I originally had the swaybar attached in the "conventional" method, I had to put the bolts through from the top to keep them off of the CV joint boot. One of the reasons I changed link setups is that the P-brake cables and bolt heads were interfering with each other. The P-brake cables were rubbing slightly on the CV joint boots, but not enough to damage them.