Does a rear sway bar help against fishtailing or better tires? Or both?

let up from the gas a bit

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sQoaCh
sqoach@yahoo.com

It's called torque steer. Look that up using the search function...lots of posts about it.

whatd you expect . what batboy said.

I bet you didn't install poly or metal bushings in the cradle. If you stuck the old worn out crappy rubber bushings back in, that's probably your biggest problem. You also need to put poly bushings in the rear control arms and install much stiffer rear springs. Any worn out suspension parts (tie rod ends, ball joints, etc.) will need to be replaced too. A rear sway bar and good tires are part of the plan too. But, mainly torque steer is due to the cradle and rear control arms moving around too much.

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BATBOY
1985 SE auto with 350 Chevy V8 (Batmobile),
suspension mods, lowered, GA brakes, etc...

trade ya my 2.8 that doesn't fish tale! that'll solve your problems!

Tires, sway bar a bit, CRADLE BUSHIGS and control arm bushings.. i'm trying to get a couple sets of bushings made i've had forum member intrest in the aluminum ones and trying to get a couple spare sets so i satisfy their need. Chris West is working on a Needle bearing rear bushing replacement. but he doesn't have a price set yet... i'll buy a set and see if i can't figure it out for cheaper...

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Mario,

I dis-agree with Batboy a little bit. I think he is ahead of the steps on diagnostics a little.

3 things make me say he is a little quick on the cure.

Three questions should be answered before we offer you up any cures.

1) In another post you mention that your tires are not in very good condition. Could they be part of the problem?

Also 2) You also don't tell us if the rear tires are spinning when this thing is fishtailing. If they are spinning, then only you can cure that.

& 3) Have you considered a wheel alignment?

While Batboy's cures will work, however, if you have any of the 3 above mentioned symptoms (bad tires &/or tires spinning &/or alignment) his cures won't fix those problems completely.

I think we should consider the 3 items above before offering the cures batboy recommends.

As he tells you a sway bar and "A" arm bushings are always a good idea on a performance car. As far as engine cradle bushings, I've built more than 150 V-8 cars myself and the only times I've installed the cradle bushings is when the originals were damaged on dis-assembly. I'd say that 90% of the cars I've built used the stock cradle bushings and I'M SURE that none of them had the cradle bushing problem he is talking about.

"A" arm bushings are alsways a good idea & even more so when you add the torque of a V-8. If you still have the fishtailing problem once you have good tires and a good alignment, then my money says that you'll need to replace the "A" arm bushings. When you have worn of tired "A" arm bushings and you go to apply lots of power, the worn bushings allow the "A" arm to move slightly towards the front of the car as the power is applied. This movement causes the rear wheel alignment to momentarilly change to a "Toe-out" condition. That can cause the rear end to dart around a bit. Some people might call this torque steer, I do not. You might say "well these items are the same items I had in the car when it was a 4 banger and they were just fine then" The difference is that you now have a lot more torque trying to move that "A" arm out of correct position.

I hope this helps a little.

Archie

What, you don't think that if someone can make them cheaper they should?

yeah i know it's the lazy way.. and probly not the proper gentlemans way to do somthing... i think i've got a set of a-arms.. all i'd need was the bushing housing and an hour at bearings and drives to match a press fit bearing to the stock housing... hmm.. wonder if their open next week... he's not saying that somone shouldn't make them cheap.. he's saying others shouldn't scam off other peoples R&D to get a product. he has a valid point.

[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 12-20-2000).]

Yeppers, Archie makes some good points about the torque steer, and for sure, I haven't examined the car or driven it to see exactly what the problem is, so starting with the tires is a good place. I've said in previous posts that tires can make or break handling. But, I think Ol' Archie is severely underestimating how much those crappy rubber cradle bushings cause torque steer on non-88 Fiero. Hmmmm, I wonder why they did away with rubber cradle bushings on the 88 Fieros? Nevermind, I'm sure Archie knows more than a team of Pontiac engineers.

I'm speaking from experience here, I've tried everything except the rear sway bar and the poly cradle bushings and I still have excessive torque steer. When you can see the cradle move when you goose it, you'd better believe that's the major cause.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 12-20-2000).]

quote Originally posted by batboy: I'm sure Archie knows more than a team of Pontiac engineers.]

Wow Batboy, I had thought you were above that kind of comment.

Edited for spelling

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-20-2000).]

Me? Above a little sarcasm? No way!

quote Originally posted by batboy: Me? Above a little sarcasm? No way!

Well, to be honest, it kinda ticks me off .... I didn't expect that from you at all.

When I read posts by you, I can always plan on reading something that is well thought out good advise. Fully 99% of the time I know that when you answer someone, the answer is going to be the same thing I would have told him.

The first time I disagree with you, you reach out & start slapping me around. That's not right.

In this case, I'm only saying that things should be taken in steps. Like I said before, I've only used poly cradle bushings on cars that had to have the forward cradle bolts cut off to remove the original engine. I never said that the original cradle bushings were better than poly, I just said that they are not the first thing I look at when a car handles badly. And, out of 150+ V-8 swaps I've done, I've NEVER had a handling problem associated with those bushings.

BTW, I've never been able to see the cradle move when I'm gooseing it.

If GM engineering was so smart, why did it take 4 years to eliminate the bushings?

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-20-2000).]

Herb Adams VSE out of CA makes the rear lower A-arm needle bearings for the 84-87 suspensions, and has done so for almost 10 years.

I've got the part number for the bushings through Summit if anybody wants them..

later,
mw

I havent been to this site in like four months....seems like everything is still in order;
batboys giveing good advice, 1FST2M6 is still re-engineering the Fiero and Archie is still Crying....Buaaaaa, Buaaaaa!
He, He, He, I love you guys!

Archie, This is were you get ticked again.....LOL

Archie{/b]:

My rear tires are in excellent shape. I had previously mentioned that one of my front tires showed small hairline cracks on the sidewalls.

I drove my new v8 today for a bit longer. I have been careful taking any long trips until I KNOW that everything is working the way it should.

[b]Torque Steer - I think I am the cause of the problem. I am still getting used to all this power. The car handles very nicely overall. There is a bit of a "floaty" feeling at 35 miles per hour but nothing alarming. I examined all the bushings prior to the v8 install and they were in good condition. If anything needs replacing it would in the A-arm area but those also looked decent.
A sway bar would probably just help the "swaying" but not the torque steer. I figured that much. Sagging is gone. No need to change anything.

Power This v8 thing is simply fun! I love the roar of the new engine! It's awsome.
however- I am not certain about my 600 CFM edelbrock carburator performance.
I think I am running too rich due to some black smoke upon revving from idle. I have gone 2 steps lean according to the manual but I don't think the carb is tuned.
I may be missing out on lots of power from this 325hp motor due to bad metering/jetting.
If anyone here has installed a #1406 on their v8 conversion, please let me know how you jetted yours. I am at 6,000 ft. of altitude. Archie, any recommendations?
Engine temp on cruise seems to linger around
180 degrees or less. It's been in the high 30's here though.

quote Originally posted by FIEROCIOUS: I havent been to this site in like four months.......LOL

We didn't miss you.

BTW, screw you.

Archie

my cradle and the a-arms would shift as soon as the nitrous button was pushed on my SE. I KNOW that V8s make at least that much (253lbft average 310lbft on Track days) with the car on a dyno it's pretty obvious! Next time you get a chance to strap a car down watch it and you'll be suprised at how much flex there really is.

We didn't miss you.

BTW, screw you.

Archie

Unfortunately, I knew Archie was NOT above making statements like that!

Keep digging your grave Archie and nobody will buy anything from you. Hahaha!

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Smells like....... a fiero fight!

Always makes for good reading.

Zorba, welcome to the wonderful world of edelbrock carburetors. Had one on the 289 in my mustang. Might as well have left the tired old 170 ci. six in it and drilled a 3/8 hole in the bottom of the fuel tank. Would have ran the same way. In all fairness to Victor and Co., it was too big a carb for my engine. Plus, the one in my buddy's cutlass runs good. But not as good as the Holley i have now.

I do have a comment on the R&D discussion. I have to lean toward Archie's point of view. I think it's OK to rip off an idea FOR YOUR OWN PRIVATE, NON-COMMERCIAL USE, but not to post it all over the internet, even if you provide it to others at no profit.

Have a nice day.

Pollack & Archie,

My morals would lead me to agree with you guys on the R&D issue. However, I am an engineer by trade and I can assure you that EACH AND EVERY COMPANY USES THIS PRACTICE. They have developed the pc term for this as benchmarking. One good example is that a friend of mine works for Delphi in Novi, MI. Each month they purchase a competitors vehicle, dismantle it entirely and discard the remains. The entire time they are documenting each the methodology, installation, location and general convention of the competitors vehicle. Even the first Microsoft windows platform was stolen from Apple who stole it from Xerox.

William T. Thorn, III

quote Originally posted by Archie: We didn't miss you. BTW, screw you. Archie

What did fierocious do to you to piss you off? I just noticed he's from Utah. Tell me something that won't surprise me. I know you are pissed for a reason. In fact, for you to write that, you are really pissed.
As for you fierocious: your tone and sarcasm would piss anybody off. You see why Utah gets such a bad rap with the rest of the country? These guys are here just trying to help with a thread I initiated. Maybe you can apologize and show what you are all about? Or not respond at all? What does Utah have to do with all this? I am sick and tired of having people laugh on my face when I am out of town and tell them I am from Utah. Fortunately, I can say I wasn't born and raised here. I know, you're gonna tell me to move out if I don't like it here. This is typical. But Let me give you an example of stupidity: I had a tubular chassis v8 lamborghini countach here in 1997. I bought it California from a doctor.
[b]Only in Utah would things like this happen:
* A redneck in a pick up truck cleared his throat and spit on my windshield at a light for no reason.
* People yelled obscenities at me on the road for no apparent reason
* In Park City, morons would throw food from the balconies on top of my car when it was parked.
* Cops would pull me over for no reason. 4 times.
* People told me that it was illegal to have that car in Utah!
* F-bodies were always racing me on imaginary challenges.
* People would speed up to 90MPH from miles behind me to pass me at high speeds on the freeway.
* People threatened to run over my car with their trucks.

Most people are unfriendly, rude drivers, despisers of "uncommon cars" and could care less about other people and if it weren't for the Utah Jazz and Skii resorts,deer hunting massacres and gorgeous mountains, what then?

You see, besides other stupidities from people, Utah i s a good place to live. But since you and I live here, let's give this state a good name by behaving a little more civilized towards people who are just willing to help us. Of course, if you piss them off, they will tell where to go, with reason.

quote Originally posted by Zorba: [b]Archie{/b]: [b]Torque Steer - I think I am the cause of the problem. I am still getting used to all this power. The car handles very nicely overall. If anything needs replacing it would in the A-arm area but those also looked decent. .... No need to change anything. Power This v8 thing is simply fun! I love the roar of the new engine! It's awsome. [/B]

Mario, I'm glad you've sorted out your percieved handling problem. Probally a good thing that you didn't tear the car apart to install all the parts that someone said you needed. If you would have done what you were told you must do, you would have thrown a bunch of parts and labor at a problem that didn't yet need addressing.

As I told you earlier, you should fully understand your handling problem before you throw a bunch of parts at it. But, even as my advise was correct it didn't keep me from being flamed.

I disagreed with some of the advise you were being given. I advised a more conservative approach. In his flaming someone said "Keep digging your grave Archie and nobody will buy anything from you. Hahaha!". Mario, why don't you tell him that you didn't buy any of the parts you are using from me and yet I've been helping you as much as posible?

Some people seem to think that everytime I disagree with someone that I'm hurting my business. I disagree, When I give someone advise to fully understand their problem before throwing a bunch of money at it, I'm helping business.

I'm just like everyone else on this Forum, when someone wants to insult me, I'm going to respond in kind.

I'm looking forward to the day when someone gives out correct advise, he isn't flamed for doing so.

Flame away fellas, but keep in mind that my advise in this thread was correct. And I did nothing to start this flame war. This is all about someone who doesn't want his advise critiqued and someone else who can't resist posting when there is a chance to flame me.

Archie

someone seems bitter with Archie... i think he had a valid point on what he said to me...

I can see Cliff Locking this soon...

[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 12-21-2000).]

Archie, apparently your definition of somebody flaming you is anytime they have a different opinion than you. I didn't call you any names or tell anyone "screw you".

It's still my opinion that you are not entirely right, although I do admit that the tires are probably the first place to start. However, I think Zorba will still has problems even with perfect tires. OMG somebody disagreed with you again. Hahahaha!

Archie, should I dig up all the past posts where you've ridiculed and made personal attacks on long time Fiero Forum members? Fierocious didn't say anything wrong. He was just stated the obvious truth of the matter, in my opinion.

Zorba, this has nothing to do with Utah. Archie is pissed at me for proving he don't know it all and is taking it out on anyone else who agrees with me. In my opinion, the only one here that needs to apologize is ol' Archie...but don't hold your breath waiting for him to do that. Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 12-21-2000).]

Regarding the title of this thread: Zorba- Are you bragging or complaining?

hey zorba

Everyone has preferences, thats why theres so many diff cars. Personally I like the old Edlebrock/Carter AFBs. I had 2 1100cfm Hollies on a drag car I owned and couldnt get it to ever run same two times, I remember taking them off and throwing them out into a field by the strip as far as I could. Took AFB off of mine and a friends Mopars and ran great. Also had a Holly dbl pumper on my 454 racing boat, ran like crap till I put on Edlebrock. Just my own experience............

batboy, I hope you are 16 years old, because I would not expect this ridiculous behavior from a grown up.
Archie just posted a message trying to end the flame and all you do is put more coal in the fire!!
c'mon. give it up. Everybody makes mistakes.... EVERYBODY.
I personally look at Archie as a role model. If I had the money I would buy a v8 kit from archie without thinking it twice. (better yet... throw in the chop top also )
Give archie a break and turn this fire off.
jerpro

quote Originally posted by batboy: Archie, apparently your definition of somebody flaming you is anytime they have a different opinion than you. I didn't call you any names or tell anyone "screw you". (edited 12-21-2000).]

Your comment "I'm sure Archie knows more than a team of Pontiac engineers." Was a personal attack (or Flame). That comment had nothing to do with discussing the facts of a disagreement, it was a pure Flame. In you last paragraph of this latest post you once again are making another personal attack.

I'd suggest that you take your own advise by thinking "before you click on that "submit" button".

A few "long time Fiero Forum members" would like nothing more that to sensor my comments by diverting attention away from whatever thread is being discussed and focusing attention on Flame wars they started.

BTW, I never claimed to be right all the time, those were your words. Did you feel threatened when I disagreed with your advise to Mario? I try to never post to any Forum on any subject that I don't have personal experience with. Thru my personal experience, I knew that your advise was flawed, I kindly pointed out in a way that would not hurt your feelings and you took offense. It's that simple, I will not appologize for giving my own advise nor for responding in kind to people who can't post a message that is not a flame.

Maybe you can tell us what value Fierocious added to this thread by his comment.

This will be my last comment on this thread, but you can bet your batboy, I'll be reading posts a lot closer from now on & I'll make corrections when they are needed.

Archie

That Archie...he's soooo funny. Think I will dig around in the archives and prove that he often starts the flames and calls people names.

I maintain that my first comment was just a little good natured sarcasm. After you started spewing BS about me and attacking Fierocious... well sure I responded in kind, after YOU flamed US.

If you can't run with the big dogs...ya better stay on the porch. You better believe I'll be watching your posts in the future too, just like a good little watchdog. Bark, bark! Hahahahaha!

Jerpro, you are entitled to your own opinions, but I sure wouldn't buy anything from someone who verbally abuses people. I think if you'll reread the posts, you'll see that ol' Archie has been throwing gasoline onto the flames the whole way.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 12-21-2000).]

I just cant see what the big deal is about all this crap. Dont you guys realize that these are just "words". Do we have to take everything that sounds somewhat negative as a "flame" and jump all over it. I thought this forum was made up of mature adults that owned fieros. Not children that need to call each other names and verbally abuse each other. I dont know about the rest of the members but this "flaming" SH$T is starting to piss me off!!!!!!!! We should learn to respect each others opinion.

Sorry just venting. Why do people feel the need to jump down everyones throat at the slightest hint of negativity?

Sorry, just getting tired of the childish anticks.

Scott

Back to the Forum,
Well, on my Fiero, after I did all of the mods on my suspension, the sway bars, new springs, koni shocks, poly bushings, new cradle mounts, bla bla bla, I had the stock wheels and old tires on the car and when I would take it for a “spin“, It would let loose in every gear. Not full throttle but accelerating quickly and going through the gears.
That is what I call a kick arse! adrenaline moment.

Tires would be the first I would change, get some fat ones, then the sway bar, then…..

I thought that the reason we had the "Tech" area is so that someone who has a problem with their car could get advise from many people with varied opinions on how to approach a particular problem. Then they could decide for themselves which method to employ. Many members who post problems are looking for advise on how to correct it. Granted, if we were all together and could physically see and diagnose the problem together, then we'd most likely reach the same corrective action.
But we cannot "see" the vehicle. We can only express our opinions and give advise on what we have experienced. Also many problems could exhibit the same symptoms but be different components.
Just something to think about before hitting the "submit now" button.
Zorba, It sounds like you have a handle on what was/is causing your problems. Glad the forum could help.

Happy Holidays!

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[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 12-22-2000).]

Peace on Earth and goodwill towards man...

I can't believe all this crap I've read.As a group most of us try to help each other when there is a problem.
Batboy,I've come to respect your experience and would be the first to acknowledge you as one of the more accomplished members of this forum.But,Archie did not deserve the kind of comeback he got from you.He and you were trying to accomplish the same thing,namely help Zorba.
Fierocious,If you haven't been around for a few months,maybe you should do your homework before you criticize someone based on old information.Archie,has been and I hope will continue to be a source of help for people like me.

I wouldn't say your without blame on the whole forum arguing thing hugh. Sorry.

When I see something wrong I comment on it,If this is arguing,then so be it.

With all due respect guys, it's over...don't fan the coals back up into flames. You are all entitled to your own opinions of course. I will let things slide the first time or two. BUT, this was not the first time Archie attacked my Forum friends over petty crap. Look at the above posts. I didn't tell anyone to "Screw you", Archie did. If that isn't a flame, then nothing is.

I've had lots of private emails supporting and agreeing with me. They just choose to stay out of the fray. Was I being immature? Of course I was! I said earlier that I responded in kind. I wasn't the only one acting childish here. If you want to start a "Batboy is so immature" topic, then go to the O/T section and do so. If you don't like what I have to say, then don't read my posts, simple as that. Let's get this technical section back to being technical.

OK Batboy. Let's get technical.
In fact, let's get down and dirty Chicken s**t style.
Fiero do not suffer from torque steer. They can't. They're not front wheel drive.
The problem you are refering to is called "Bushing Deflection Steer".
Torque steer is when a CV joint or U-joint from the half shaft, is angled in any direction but straight, and is rotating with a load applied to it.
These secondary loads that arise from the U-joints agony are applied to each wheel hub in essentially all directions. The up and down loads are handled by the lower ball joints and the upper B/J or strut. The loads in the side to side directions are fed into the steering arms, or whatever links are used to hold the wheel straight ahead.
If the outer CV joints on either side of the car are at, or are deflected to the same angle, the torque steer moment is cancelled out and the driver receives no steering wheel twisting input. If however, the CV/U-joints have different angles, there will be a net difference in the moment input into the steering linkage, and the steering wheel will twist accordingly.
The Fiero does not have a steering wheel attached to the rear upright, ergo, it will not experience "torque steer".
But I knew what you meant anyway, so all is forgiven..=)
Peace,
Brian