OK. What's the final word on cutting my stock springs to lower my car? I've heard good and bad points about it. I can't afford $250 for lowering/sport springs, but I'd really like to get some of that space out of the wheel wells. If it makes any difference, I have an '85 GT with the WS6 suspension. I guess that means that I have a higher spring rate than "normal"? I'd like to take her down about 1 1/2". 2" max. ?????????

MM, please do not cut the springs! it is not the way to go. believe me... i understand tight $ situations, save your money and buy the proper springs...

pretty please?

hoop

CUT THOSE PUPPIES DOWN!!! slam em on the chop saw and put the hurt on those BAD BOYS!!! bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz clank.......
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz clank.......

but seriously, my 85 gt only sees the highway about once a month. it's tight but it rides like a brick on a skateboard. i cut off 2 coils front and back. then got a full 4 wheel alignment. if you drive alot, don't do it. if the car is a toy then go for it.

DON'T CUT THE SPRINGS!!! you'll only cost yourself MORE money than a decent set of springs... in multiple alignments, replacing shocks/struts, and tires... go to www.shox.com i got my Eibach from them for $185 you can put them in yourself then go to an alignment shop pay $50 and get it aligned. You'll waste more time and money doing wrong than you will doing it right the first time.! And the Suspension Tech or Jamex springs are cheaper then the Eibach set.. www.jamex.com or www.jamex.nl or springguys@aol.com for Jamex stuff.

After spending the time to cut,grind the ends flat,make a spacer for the front,put it all back together,you'll have wished you'd just waited.

you car won't handle for crap and will eat struts like there going out of style. I worked at NOPI for over a year and seeing many people at the shop (over the past 4 years of dealing with them) come in complaining cause their car bounces all the time or is "leaking some stuff... "(pressureized shock oil) it eats your bushings faster... even if you drive it once a month.. don't waste you time cutting the springs. And don't HEAT them either! they'll just become brittle and break! and then your REALLY screwed! sorry to sound so harsh but i've delt with SOOO many people that have already messed up their car with these ideas.

[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 06-20-2000).]

So. What are you guys really saying?

I guess I'll just have to wait until I can afford new springs. Mine's a daily driver. I can use stock shocks and struts, right??? I hope so since I just bought a set of each from another forum member (what a deal! ). How would I go about changing the springs once I get the right ones? Is it difficult? How time consuming for someone with no abilities? I can't afford for the Grape Ape to be down longer than a couple of days.

TIA

Monkeyman, if you want to fill up your wheel wells, you might consider going to bigger tires. I have trial fitted 235/60-15 tires up front. The front edges lightly kiss the wheel wells at full steering lock and fill them up much better than the stock tires. 245/60-15 tires can be used in the back. I am using '88 front suspension, '86 rear suspension, and '87 GT wheels.
You're spedometer will read 8% low if you go from 205/60-15 to 245/60-15. I am working on an adjustable electronic gizmo to correct this. I will be happy to share schematics with the forum when I get it done.
Don't cut your springs.

Thanx, but I want to stay as close to the correct diameter as possible. If anything, I'll probably go with a slightly lower profile tire. I plan on getting 16" rims someday with 50 series tires. Will 245/50/16s fit?? Anyone know? The actual plus 2 size (225/50/16) seems to have a smaller diameter than stock. Not necessarily a problem if I can adjust my speedo, but I'm having enough trouble with the little things. I'm not sure I want to try to add anything as complex as your electronic gadget. (Nothing personal. )

MM, Like everyone else has said "Don't cut them" As for time to change them it's about 2 hours for front and 3 hours for back. This is provided you can get bolts loose without breaking them. The sway bar bolts can be a pain with 15 years of crud/rust built up.

245s will fit just fine.. my 245-40-17 were ok.. just make sure your wheels are wide enough to support the tire.. 245 needs an 8" wide wheel. they will fit on 7" wheel but once again.. you'll be dissappointed by its handling charactoristics. Your current struts will be fine...

I say cut them.
You can do it,the 1.5 inches no problem.

if u cut the springs, u lose one of the mounting points, the spring can move around, alters alignment geometry, rattles to name a few. wait n buy lowering spring, dropped spindles, or go to coil overs, depending on what u want to spend. Coil overs are great, u end up with all new shocks, exactly the ride u want and u can change the height whenever u want from a 4X4 to a lowrider. and there not much more than springs, shocks and struts.

rogergarrison--Why would I lose all of that with cut springs but not with lowering springs (which I would assume would be approx. the same height as cut springs)?

Guys--What is the reason for not cutting springs? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but everytime I get one answer, someone comes up with the other. Is this just a difference of opinion? Or are there some serious, specific reasons why cut springs are bad? Is the ride just rougher with cut springs?

1FST2M6--Why would the alignment keep changing if I cut my springs? Why would my shocks/struts/tires wear more?

lowCG--Why would I need a spacer for the front? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

1FST2M4--Concerning the wheels...If I need 8" wide wheels, I'll do that. (I have to buy new wheels if I want to go with 16"ers anyway) Any idea if I'd have enough clearance for 16x8" wheels/245-50-16tires?? I don't have a problem going with a different offset/backset on the rears (a la '88 Formula/GT). My local tire shop isn't much help.

Guys--I want to make sure all my ducks are in a row before I buy any parts. I'll probably have to buy things piece by piece since there's no way I can afford to do everything at once.

then save money and cut your springs.everyone chant...CUT CUT CUT CUT...all together now....CUT CUT. yeah it's not the most ultimate in perfection to lower your car, but it won't kill you OR your struts. i've lowered many cars and showtrucks much heavier than a Fiero GT. most people do it wrong and don't let the vehicle settle before running out and tromping around the local drag to show off. much less get an alignment. dropped spindles ARE better (if you can find any) but you still have the issue of the back clearance. plus if you cut slowly AND correctly you will not put excessive heat on the spring itself. i give respect to 1FST2M6 for having worked at NOPI and all, but i can remember all the people who dogged him about using nitrous and blowing up the engine. everyone's got their own opinions. mine is that cutting the springs will not harm performance under normal driving conditions. i love my 85 and the first thing i did was cut the springs. they do not rattle, nor is my alignment off. it rides rough, but really. are we in it for the comfort of a good ride?? we want HAIRPIN TURNS baby YEAH!! especially if you already have the sport spring package to begin with, i say they will hold up just fine. cut the springs.

Ok,let me see if I can explain further;with the front suspension down closer to the limits(rubber bumpstops),you need to have a stiffer rate of spring to keep the suspension from crashing into the rubber bumpstops like some really bouncy,slammed cars you see driving around(totally dangerous).
The reason the stock spring doesn't crash is because the rate will increase as the spring compresses;yes all springs are progressive,just some more than others.
When you cut a spring,you increase the stiffness by the percentage of active(not flat,like on the ends)coils.So,cut a stock 175# spring in half,and you'll then have two 350# springs.
Now the problem with just cutting your coils by only the amount required to get the car down to where it looks good is that the springs aren't going to be stiff enough.In order to get anything close to what the nicely wound aftermaket lowering springs can do,you have to remove so much of the spring that without a spacer,it'll be way,way too low,and will be actually on the bumpstops.
Also you'll need to carefully grind down the last coil to a nice taper,to try and get the same effect as the original end-coil that was wound flat to give some "lead-in",if you don't do this step,the ride will suffer,even more with no benefit whatsoever.

i cut my springs with a chop saw, than rounded them off with a grinder. the whole process took about 30 minutes. the rear springs ARE a little more complicated to align after they are cut. so i tack welded the lower part of the spring to the spring holder on the strut. then lowered the car CAREFULLY onto the spring. if you examine the front springs there is a rubber ring on the top with a recessed indention for the spring end to fit snugly into. put this back exactly as it was taken out and you should be fine. don't forget to TRIM your bump stops. even custom kits recommend this. BTW i cut exactly 1 1/2 inches off my front coils. if you are nervous, then cut and re-install. let it settle for about a week. if you don't like it then cut again. no biggie.

1st, the ends of the coil are shaped to fit in there pocket without anymovement. if you cut the end off, u lose that. sure u can get it to work but its still not right.

now for a little geometry lesson. upper and lower control arms are different lengths. this allows the wheel to tilt in or out while turning (camber) corners. Some cars are more than others because of different roll centers. a very good example is a full size ford van. straight ahead the wheel sits nearly straight up, now turn it to lock one way and look at the angle! all this is engineered into the car by the manufacturer for steering ease, handleing. All designed around the factory height setting. Now the ez part, if you cut spring, like is stated above you will get a lot more problems with bottoming out, because you change the springs load capacity.

if you still want a cheap way out, just get under the car with a cutting torch and heat the springs red hot, car will fall clear to the ground or however much you want. wont even get your hands dirty.

I have the article from Herb Adams and that is what they did on their race car.
This is a quote from Sept 91 Kit Car Magazine:

Spring rates on stock Fieros are correct for most purposes, but the problem is that most of these cars are too high off the ground. The best way to lower either the front or the rear is to cut the existing springs. By cutting half a coil off a spring and reforming the end, you can lower your Fiero about one inch. Lowering the car reduces the available ride travel, but for most driving conditions, there is no loss of ride quality.

Those rubber bumpstops are put there to keep the control arms from going up at an angle so far that the suspension is no longer capable of absorbing any bumps,and it isn't a good idea to trim these.Spring companies suggest this in their literature often.
You might have better luck with some urethane ones,but the problem really isn't the bumpstops,it's trying to lower your car way more than is functional for any more than 7-11 parking lot posing.
If the car weighed a third of what our cars do,and was only used on a smooth track,you wouldn't need the travel,but our cars do.
You could always just take the springs out and ride around on the rubber! (don't)

I thought this thread would die long ago, but since it didn't, I'll put in my two cents worth too.
A week ago, while replacing the lower ball joints in my '88 Formula(already?), I took the opportunity to measure the springs, to figure out the rate and measure the lower A-arm to work out the motion ratio. This was to explore the suitability for chopping the springs to lower the car. This is what I found out:
The front springs (WS6) were not good for cutting as they had both ends formed(bent) to fit the spring pads. If I were to cut the springs 1/2 turn per Herb Adams, I would have had to reheat a new section of the spring and rebend it. Thereby softening it, or embrittleing it. In either case there was a good chance of ruining the spring. So I nixed the idea.
But here's the numbers I came with to find out what the effect on the car would be:
STOCK Spring Rate: ~236#/in
STOCK Wheel Rate: ~77#/in (spring rate with motion ratio factored in)
STOCK Ride Frequency: ~1.2Hz (wheel rate with the sprung weight (front only) of the body factored in, in Hz, cycles per second)
An old Cadillac might have a ride frequency of about 1.0Hz. A stiffly sprung factory production car might be 1.5Hz.
If I DID cut the spring 1/2 coil, it looks like this:
Spring Rate: 256.8#/in
Wheel Rate: 83.8#/in
Ride Frequency: 1.23Hz
The net lowering of the front end from stock:
~.9 inch.
While this looks good, consider that I have only upped the spring rate 10%, but have LOST about 25% of my available travel in jounce(upward bump motion). So, the car will bottom earlier over bumps than with the stock springs.
If it does bottom hard, it will use the tires as the springs. And that's about 1200#/in. Which works out to a ride frequency of 4.67Hz.
Now you will feel what a F-1 driver has to put up with!
Sorry for the length, but I had fun running the numbers..

As for lowering vs. alignment, When I lowered my car the alignment was way off.
The front was only minor but the back was really bad. The reason the alignment in back gets whacked the worst is when you lower the car the strut is pulled up higher. The rear torsion arm is adjusted for for a set length. (previous alignment) Since the strut and A-arm assembly are higher and the torsion arm hasn't changed it pulls the tires into a toe out condition. So the tires want to pull out in opposite directions.

now i DO NOT believe in heating springs with a torch!!!! geeeeeeezzz!! that's an old hot rodder trick that my dad probably did with his 68 nova. it only works if your car is realy heavy too.

Hey monkey...Im just as interested as you are about cutting the springs (ive thought about it too). BUT one thing i can tell you is DO NOT heat the springs in order to lower them. What happens is if you do this you will actually change the micro-structure of the steel there for causing it to become brittle and lose some of its tensile strength. Theres a good chance that somewhere down the road the spring will literally snap. And we all know what happens then

I guess I'll just have to wait until I can afford some commercial lowering springs. I figured I could just cut some off of my current/stock springs and reinstall them. Guess not. I appreciate all of the help and info, guys. If anyone has a slightly used set (all 4 corners, please) of sport/lowering springs they want to sell cheap, LMK.

Dave

you'll have PLENTY of room for 16x8s.. my 17x8s were fine... and there are others out there with 17x9s on fieros (17x8 45mm offset) don't kown the offset needed for 16s.. www.tirerack.com or www.discounttiredirect.com they will give you the information needed for 16s. I bought my 17s from the shop, but they got them from Discount Tire.

Rather than just read, I figured I'd give my opinion on this. I do not feel that cutting the stock springs is a terrible thing. As long as you do it properly (no excessive heating) and you do not cut too much (1/2 coil) it seems OK to me. I am currently running Suspension Techniques Springs on the front and Eibach's on the rear (86SE). This lowered the car about 1.5" front and rear. The distance from the top of the tire (stock 215/60/R14) went from over 3" in front to 2" and from 4.5" in the rear to 3". It looks great, but definately rides harder. The rear is fine. The major harshness and bouncy feeling comes from the fact that the front lower control arm now just begins to touch the bump stop at normal ride height. So, when I hit a bump the only travel left is whatever the bump stop will allow. If you don't beleive me go look at your suspension (if lowered) while the car is on the ground. With this set-up you actually feel more than the 292# ST springs. If you stick with stock and cut half a coil, you will still have a decent amount of travel left. The car may still bottom out over big bumps, but it bottoms with lowering springs anyway. As for the alignment and shocks/struts, I can't figure out why you would have any problems there. My next move may be to try out stock WS6 springs in front with the Eibach's in the rear to make the wheel well openings equal. I have a request though:

Could someone with an 85GT or 86-87SE with the WS6 suspension and 215/60/14 tires possibly measure the distance from the top of the front wheel to the bottom edge of the front fender and let me know. Mine was a Y99 car originally. My e-mail is defannin@suffolk.lib.ny.us
Thanks,
Dave

I've got an '58 GT with the WS6 suspension, but I'm currently running 205/60/15s. (It's what came on the car when I bought it. New Pirellis and nice ARE rims. Only $350 for the car. Not a bad deal, eh?) I'd be happy to measure for you anyways?

quote Originally posted by Monkeyman: I've got an '58 GT with the WS6 suspension, but I'm currently running 205/60/15s. (It's what came on the car when I bought it. New Pirellis and nice ARE rims. Only $350 for the car. Not a bad deal, eh?) I'd be happy to measure for you anyways?

WOW!! a 1958 Fiero GT. I just lost a bid on a 1959 on Ebay

Oops! I might have meant an '85. (But then again, I might have really meant a '58. The rarest of the rare. Factory raspberry paint, factory ragtop/targa top, factory power steering, factory V12, etc. Wanna buy it??)

I've got a setup that uses 5" coils from another car and shims/spacers ,with the rate going from around 220 to 300+.With the lowered spindle effect I get away from hitting the bumpstops,and the car is lowered about an inch.The soft portion of these progressive springs is about half an inch from being used up,and after that the rate gets alot firmer,yet rarely,if ever hits the bumpstops even here in Detroit,"home of the sport ute".

A properly made set of lowering springs will have a different spring rate than stock, so they wont bottom out anymore than stock ones, even though ride height is lower. Everytime your car bottoms out its like a sledge hammer on the ball joints, and there not the best on Fieros anyway. I cant think of a car that has any weaker ball joints, you gotta change em more than air filters (joke)

ps, was being sarcastic about the torch on springs, monkey said he wanted cheap!

Here are some prices from shox.com

Koni's are $449.00
Kyb's are $199.00
set of 4

Eibach springs $219.00 lowers .8" (84-87 only)
Suspension Techniques springs $199.00 lowers 1.5" (84-87 only)
Addco Sway bars $129.00 each front and rear.

I have a set of shocks and struts coming in the mail. (Should be here in the next few days.) I'll probably get ST springs since I want more than an .8" drop. 1 1/2" is more like it (and cheaper, too). As far as the sway bars, I just need new end links and whatever the middle mounts are called. I have a front sway bar from an '84 I plan on using on the rear. I know it's not going to be as good as a 1" bar that I'm supposed to put back there, but I don't intend to race, either. We'll see how it works.

Thanx for the advice, guys.