the lights staying lit when braking is exactly what you want to happen. If they don't people will think you pulled the hazards on.

i can't wait for your web page with your idea-very cool that you figured out the problems!! i think that the brake lights coming on one time is great to! can't wait to try on my car!!!!

Hey Greg, it's been a week since we've heard any word from you in this thread. How are you making out? Have you stumbled across any more problems?

YES!!!
I have had one huge problem which is also a problem in the circuit posted in this subject.
Both Designs use SCR's to switch the lights on and off.
The big problem is that SCR's stay on untill there is no current to go through the SCR.
A fancy 10 dollar electronic flasher has a built in capacitor, which will keep the SCR switch on for the time period that the flasher has the lights off. I then tried a heavy duty flasher, which I found out after tearing it apart that there is a small filament which enables a small amount of current to continually flow through the flashers. This makes it so the lights appear off, but the SCR switches do not close.
If I physically make myself a flasher by quickly disconnecting and reconnecting power, then it works perfectly. SO... what i need to find is an "old school" flasher that truly creates an open in the circuit in order to reset the SCR's.
I have been working with an Electrical Engineer, and he is not sure as of present how to remedy this problem except to get a flasher that meets the above conditions.
All these parts have been designed to be acquired at any radio shack, so no special ordering is required. This design could likely be solved by changing to a different SCR, but that should cause the price to skyrocket (I think an scr from the shack is 2 bucks, and it could easily be 10 if buying in small numbers and from a different electronics store.)
It could also be rigged so that the entire circuit is controlled through a relay, but in order to handle the current produced from the lights it would have to be fairly beefy, and that would jack up the price as well.

This design will also work with FET's (which would solve the flasher dilemma),but that would require a creative change in the taillight wiring,which would also turn on the parking lights whenever the brakes or the turn signal is applied and this looks cheesy.

Plan: Get a standard flasher and see how it is built. This may solve the problem, but if it doesnt I need to get a bit more creative.
ALSO: Test the circuit with the 2057 lights which may alter the resistance just enough to switch off the SCR (I am currently using another series of 12V ligts with similiar luminocity)

NOTE: If going to a store to get sockets to handle the parking and turn signal lights for the innermost lenses, BE SURE TO GET THE LOW PROFILE! The standard ones fit but are VERY TIGHT.

DO NOT FRET I WILL HAVE A DESIGN SOONER OR LATER WHICH WILL WORK!!! The price should be less than 1/2 of the price I saw for a prebuilt system. ( I think the chips are about 20 bucks and there are miscellaneous resistors, wire, and a capacitor or two, and then a generic breadboard will be needed to put it all together. THen there is the price for the inner sockets which would have to be purchased for the other kit as well.

Not to discourage you, but what's wrong with the schematic Patrick posted about 30 messages ago? That should work perfectly...

Ok here is the deal, there is a little thing in the schematic called a TIC106M
That is an SCR (wait you built the dash so you probably know this... well for all the others that might not).
IT is basically a solid state switch.
The only way to turn it off (open the switches for the sequence to happen again )is to stop current flowing through pins A and K.
I too am using a near identical SCR as that schematic.
As I said current has to stop going through the SCR in order to open the switch (so the lights are truly off).
Well the electronic flasher stores charge in a capacitor. When the capacitor bleeds off it bleeds through the path of least resistance (the SCR A-K pins and the low ohmage light bulbs) This keeps the SCR switch closed.

The heavy duty thermal flasher I got has a small built in coil which instead of cutting power off completely, it heats up a VERY low resistance filament inside the flasher. This makes the light bulbs appear off, but actually there is current flowing through the circuit. after the filament in order for the circuit to complete it must go to ground. It again chooses the path of least resistance, which apparently is through the abovemnetioned SCR's. Apparently this is enought current flowing through the SCR to keep its internal switch closed, so then when the lights go on again there is no sequence since the SCR switches are still closed.

This might be solved by adding more light bulbs in my circuit that are not part of sequence, and if they are in parallel, they would simulate the other turn signal lights which may result in the scr's not being the path of least resistance (ooh i think ill try that out right now).
But at least on paper, the abovementined schematic has the same problem as my circuit which boils down to the inner workings of the flasher.

With the limitations on the application (wires, and light bulb socket wires), my design is almost identical to the one shown, except mine should be a bit more static safe, and all the parts can be acquired at radio shack a popular electronics store in the states, which should allow easy access to the parts, and for a much cheaper price than the logic chip listed in the schematic (from the price checks I have done).

Hmmm.... this is all well over my head. I'm glad you're a persistent guy, Greg. It seems that we've hired the right person for the job! I know we don't pay very well, but...

OK that thing I was talking about simulating more light in parallel with the circuit.
I hooked up another light and it seemed to do the trick! That was a DUH solution I suppose, but hey i am not an EE, and i havent done this stuff for many many moons, and my EE friend doesnt know cars for jack, so I guess he wouldnt have thought of the multiple lights in parallel.

Well I guess now that seems to be solved I will build up a in car prototype and give it a whirl. It will have to wait a few days (likely get done this weekend), and ill see if the multiple lights in the car solve the dilemma I was facing.

Thanks Cliff for that last comment, it appears to have had me type out the logic of it, and realize my DUH!

Oh yes by the way sure it is possible to use the other circuit, but 1/2 the fun is building it (no matter how much I swear at it), and I had the tools to do it (unlike building a complete turbocharger kit).

Greg, this might be a little late to be asking, but did you ever read this article?

http://members.nccw.net/webe/99/3/sts.htm

If I'm following it correctly, it seems to address some of your concerns.

Ok, how about this then: 3 relays, one 7805, and one AtTiny (and perhaps four diodes to protect the AtTiny)? You would need a programmer for the AtTiny, but it would be easy (and cheap) to build.

Yes many solutions to the same problem.
I picked a route and I think it is completed.
The idea of having other lights in the circuit makes those paths since they are in parallel with the rear lights, the paths of leat resistance. I tested on the bench with this idea and it seemed to work.
Prototype circuit board is made, and now I just have to plug it in.
Hopefully it will be installed tonight, but I really should do some coursework. (grad school is really getting in the way with me goofing off)!

Ok I read that little article. about 2 posts up.
I made a modification so that only 2 lights are computer controlled so there will be at least one functioning light in case of failure (seems like a good idea even if the light cycles dont flash exactly equally.
I made the prototype board ,and put it in.
It works fine with an electronic flasher.
I went and purchased a normal flasher by TRIDON, and it goes too quick!
I also got a "thermal fasher" by "IDEAL" which is the one that has a funky filament inside that has current going through the circuit at all times (although the lights appear off they are actually on).
Unfortunaltely the front light just isnt enough to allow the SCR's (used in my design and the one above) to turn off to reset the sequence.
These were all the flashers at checker, so it seems that the electronic flasher is the way to go, but it seems to go a bit too fast for my liking.

The prototype board mounts just below the trunk keyhole in the lens assy, and it should be about the size of a D cell battery per side.

Went looking through radio shack for the 4028 (the chip in the above schematic) and i dont think it is a regularly stocked item.

the design I made is EXTREMLY SIMILIAR(would almost be a patent infringement)!, but uses parts which should be at any radio shack.
I still need to make up an official schematic, but I think field testing for a few days is in order before the official release.
But for all of you who are extremely anxious to get it rolling, email me and ill send you a parts list, but in a few weeks I should have a site with detailed instructions also listing all the pitfalls and weird things to look out for when building this thing (and there are a few believe me).

But if anyone knows a type of thermal flasher which has an extremely long time on/off, and doesnt have a funky built in coil let me know where to find it.
Essentially the best flasher would be by default on, then after heating up, opens the circuit completely (infinite resistance), then after cool down goes back to its dafault position.

Cost for 2 modules about 9.50 chips + about 5 to 10 bucks for misc resistors, diodes, wire, generic breadboard(I got the misc parts from my electronics pile, so I dont know the exact price for this stuff). I also added a LED to accurately tune the system to get the timing just right, which also serves as a diagnostic indicator to see if a possibly problematic chip has fried(I did my best to protect it, but it is still a static sensitive chip).

[This message has been edited by Greg Piet (edited 09-19-1999).]

Why in hell would anyone use SCR's in a DC control? but then this whole thread is starting to go nuts.

The CMOS chip, or what ever it was above that timed the thing was fine. The use of SCRs, which are designed/known to lock, in DC applications is ludicrous. Using properly setup power transistors is far simpler. Hell we even hate to use SCR’s, or TRIAC’s, in stage lighting but we don’t have any choice. Power transistors that can handle 20-50 amps are just about impossible to afford. The only thing that saves that system is the fact its AC.

Ummm..... I don't know if anything is "nuts" or "ludicrous" in this thread, but I can say that I appreciate the fact that someone is putting time and effort into this task.

Ditto on that Patrick. And thanks for all the work you are putting into this Greg! I'm looking forward to the finished product.

Well Ill try to make this brief as to try not to agitate certain members, but hey this is already a wacky thread so why not continue with the insanity!

To stress again, my goal from this was two parts:
1) brush up on my electronics
2) try to build the CHEAPEST possible solution from parts that should be in stock at ANY radio shack.

I think I said previously that the chip in the schematic posted above was not on the rack at "my radio shack".

I must concur with others though that power transistors, or relays would have been another option, but from what was on the shelf I took this route.

My modules are in and appear to be working great! I actually got comments on them the first 10 miles that they were installed. The guy at radio shack asked me what I was building, and when I told him he was overjoyed remembering his old cougar.

So take a deep breath all, and I'll start writing up a page for all that want to make their Fiero have sequential lights by my insane but currently operational design.

Being a Former Radio Shack Employee, I can tell you that the chips you will find in a Radio Shack are the very basic logical operations, flip flops, PLL stuff for Radio Projects, and some fancier CMOS stuff to support new projects in the Radio Shack Project Books.

www.digikey.com and www.jameco.com are decent sources of all kinds of electronic components. Digikey has the bigger catalog..........

Well Greg, I'm delighted to hear you've got it working! If you want I can put your schematic up on my site somewhere. I was planning to create a section with electronic schematics only - just for things like this.

Now that you got them working, I strongly recomend you pull them back out and encapsulate them in epoxy or silicone. If you don't moisture is likely to eat them alive really quickly.

Digikey may even have some of the resiliant resin. But if you use that you need to pour it into a box with the part in it.

Hey Greg, I'm not being impatient. I'm just letting you know that I'm still looking forward to seeing how your project turns out.

This may be a little off topic for this thread, but I am interested in the schematics for the Remote Systems ECM 5446, anyone have a copy?

My ndighbor and vintage race buddy is Cougars Unlimited, who makes exactly the syatem you guys are trying to make. Lets see if I can atttach the link. I'm sure mods would be needed.....
go to; www.thuntek.net/cougars_unlimited/default.htm

This guy custom makes sequential turn signal systems for everything

Thanks Boxdin, but there's a bunch of us here who are hoping that Greg's design is going to work.

Your buddy's product may be just what we'd like, but it's $100(US). That's considerably more than I'm prepared to spend.

I drew a more official schematic, but not an overly to be used as a transparency. I wont be able to do this for a while.... Maybe Mr Pennock can do as he mention it earlier.

If I figure out how to post this image ill put it up (Hell I still dont know how to put smiley faces in the message)
If not its here temporarily http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~bill/greg/flasher.jpg
and will be at http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~gregpiet/flasher.jpg
when I get connected locally to the site and put the file there

Greg,

Try This

Type a colon : and then type a closed parentheses )

Then submit the reply and watch what happens.

Varations are the semicolon first, or a D, closed parentheses.

The smilies will be the first thing you see on the FAQ page if you look there.

Good luck with your facial expressions.

Hey! all this blinker talk is great. I had a 67 Cougar back in the 70's. It has a cam operated sequentail blinker system. It's in a little box inside the trunk stuffed down in the fender on the left side near the blinkers. I'm trying to use high intensity L.E.D.s in a blinker system right now, well I've been revising it about a hunderd times. Luckly I'm using my brothers motorcycle as the guinea pig. His ZX-7 already came in 2nd place in a Harley show contest without the blinkers working. So he's anxious for me to finish. I am INTERESTED in what's going on here.

Greg, "Mr. Pennock"?

Anyway, I'll convert your schematics to a printable PCB ASAP! As soon as it's done, I'll put it up on "Things you can build yourself".

O.K....I'm not a smart man (no..wait. That was Forrest Gump), so I wont even try to understand all of this tech talk. All I want is sequential turn signals fairly cheap. Is this a done deal, yet? PLEASE, let us know. Obviously, this is the coolest thing to come along in a while. Let me speak for everyone when I say that we MUST have these! Best of luck. Is there any way any of us "non-techies" can help??

Monkeyman,there is another thread on the turn signals. Cliff was kind enough to take Greg's design and post it there. It also has the parts needed listed.

Yeah, here's a link to the 2nd thread:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/001185.html

As the guy who started all this with the original post, I obviously have an interest in this project. However, Greg is the one who did all the work designing and building a prototype. And Cliff did the layout for the design of the board.

It would be great if some enterprising soul could make up a few of the boards that are required (with and/or without the components) and sell them to those of us at this forum who are interested (for a fair price). Anyone interested in making up these boards?

And who would be interested in buying either:
(A) the board complete with components, or
(B) just the plain, unfinished board?

I, for one, would like just the plain board so that I could acquire and mount the components myself.

I would love to get the plain board! It'll be a cool thing to throw into my 84 when (or if) I get around to rebuilding it next summer...

I want a board ready to go. I'm not much of a mechanic. But i'll take anything if I can make it work without getting too frustrated!!

I am trying to get ready to begin and make the sequential turn signal module. But since I am just slightly above an electronics beginner I have a number of questions. The answers to these questions will probably help and number of other members who will try to build the module.
1. Has anyone made a board yet?
2. Are two modules needed for each side or can one be hooked up to power the right and left side?
3. Is a different flasher needed than the one that is in the Fiero already?
4. Are the capacitors electrolytic and polarity sensitive?
5. What are the voltage ratings for the components?
6. What is the description for the U1 CD4017B? The guy at Radio Shack did not have a clue. He quested I could use a CD4017 but was not sure, and since he seemed to know less than I did he was of little help.
7. When hooking up the leads to the turn signal bulbs, do I simply splice a wire running form the terminal marked "center" of the PC board into the existing Fiero wire running to the center tail light bulb? Then splice another wire into the ground wire of the center bulb and run it to the ground on the PC board? Then do the same for the outer bulb without the extra gounnd wire?
Any clarification will be appreciated.

BRIAN

for teh above ?'s
1)I built a prototype board, and drew a schematic, which cliff then made a nifty printout.
this file may help http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~gregpiet/flasher.jpg
which is the cleaned up handwritten schematic for my working prototype

2)each module is for ONE side (see above site again)

3)YES! use an electronic flasher (mine is distributed by TRIDON for about 6 bucks and you need one for the turn signal and one for the hazard)

4)electrolytic and polarity sensitive? Well as far as I know all caps used on circuitboards have an electrolye so i would guess yes to that, and polarity??? well see the above address again for that since I used polarized caps, but some caps dont care.

5)voltage ratings? unless you are putting it in your positive ground MG or FIAT (I think they both have that wacky wiring)or something like that dont fret.

6) Your radio shck part number for the 4017 is CAT No. 276-2417

7) you physically cut the + lead from center turn light(Be sure to cut the correct one which is coming from the front of the car and not the wire going to the outer light socket) and then run from that wire (the side not connected to the light bulb socket) to the innermost light and the circuitboard. the negative lead you just need to splice into the center light ground wire.
NOTE: The current for the center and outer light are going through the board and the + lead that you connect to the board so make sure it is beefy enough.(The ground is for the circuitboard only so it can be tiny)

Hope that clears things up

Someone else has already figured out how to get sequential lights. Wiring diagrams are available for fastback models, and notchback models at:
www.euronet.nl/users/fo_elmo/techno.htm

Thanks fierosound, but we were aware of that site much, much earlier in this thread.