How much will it take for people to understand the meaning of Islam? (Page 9/14)
Mach10 NOV 20, 07:39 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by Jersey:

Since this is their view and not mine I will have to ask details.Basically they consider right wing Christians how do I say this ..intolerant to other possibilities.They have the force of the strongest military the world has ever seen behind them...something along those lines.
Kinda like how people here see militant radical islamics as Islam I guess.Nuts with the possibilty of weapons using them against those that aren't their kind.Same old thing..

I would say that they are exaggerating. The world doesn't really have much to fear from the US. Unless the US government could convince the people that it was in their benefit to start an empire...

Oh, and I own page 3!

dennis_6 NOV 20, 07:51 PM
I said show me a Christain that commited evil and was JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST. That means he would have to have done something Christ commanded. The Quran allows war against unbelivers, hence the Quran allows terrorism.

Christian means one who follows Christ. By that definiton Hitler, KKK, and David Koresh can not be Christian. They would have to follow Christ, which none of them did.

Mach10 NOV 20, 08:16 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:

I said show me a Christain that commited evil and was JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST. That means he would have to have done something Christ commanded. The Quran allows war against unbelivers, hence the Quran allows terrorism.

Christian means one who follows Christ. By that definiton Hitler, KKK, and David Koresh can not be Christian. They would have to follow Christ, which none of them did.

They say they did. Hell, they honestly beleived it.

And guess what, the so-called muslims committing the attrocities you keep posting SAY THE SAME THING.

Besides, that's a loaded question; If the bible instructs you do do something, no matter how distasteful to other people, by your own definition it can't be evil. The question has no meaning.

But I'll humor your bigotted ass. How about Salem Witch Trials and Executions? They followed the bible to the letter. They didn't suffer a witch to live. Then again, they didn't bother trying to find out whether she was a witch or not... Oh, look. Women being executed for supposed crimes that were never proven.

Don't keep twisting your own words. You've been shown up and you know it.

Songman NOV 20, 08:33 PM
MAch... Do you believe that if the true Islamic leadership in the Middle East stood up and said that all of the terroristic activities done in the name of Allah or Islam was a terrible thing and not approved of by the Islamic faith... given time for it to trickle down by word of mouth... Do you think it would make a difference in the rank and file Muslim? Do you agree that they would be more likely to follow the religious leadership than the fanatics they are now following?

Personally, I think they would if such the leadership actually stood against the fanatics. I'm interested in your take on this...

Mach10 NOV 20, 08:54 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by Songman:

MAch... Do you believe that if the true Islamic leadership in the Middle East stood up and said that all of the terroristic activities done in the name of Allah or Islam was a terrible thing and not approved of by the Islamic faith... given time for it to trickle down by word of mouth... Do you think it would make a difference in the rank and file Muslim? Do you agree that they would be more likely to follow the religious leadership than the fanatics they are now following?

Personally, I think they would if such the leadership actually stood against the fanatics. I'm interested in your take on this...


Hard to say. To say it would make no difference is naive. However, to suggest that would go a ways to solve the problems? I doubt it.

See, the people who are willing to blow themselves up are a lost-cause. You will not be able to convince them otherwise. They either come to their senses on their own, or die (one way or another) with their beliefs. The problem with the mid-east is the perpetuation of the social and economic problems that CAUSE these people to do what they do.

Let's look at the evidence here:

We have 1.6 BILLION Muslims. That's a hell of a lot of Muslims. If Islam taught violence and vengeance unilaterally, we would be seeing a LOT more violence than what we are. The only reason we NOTICE these people is because some of them are blowing themselves up on national TV.

And there's the problem; What does it say about the mindset of a people that honestly believe that the ONLY way they will get attention, the ONLY way that their people even have a hope of victory is to kill themselves?

That tells me a few things:
1) Poverty.
2) Ignorance.
3) Hopelessness.

Note that I don't include religion. Honestly, I don't believe it has any real bearing on the situation. If it did, like I said, we'd have 1.6 BILLION muslims dashing themselves to peices on our shores.

It's very hard to convince a person who is happy with his life to commit suicide. Take Osama; He's rich, he's got women, he's a happy bastard. He supposedly wants to die for his beliefs, and take a few evil yanks down with him...

Yet he's hiding away like a ***** . Uh, that doesn't suggest religious fervor to me. That suggests that he has his own political agenda (and being that his family is in the Oil biz, I'd say it's economically oriented), and that he has a LOT to gain in creating instability in the area.

See, Terrorism is kind of the last-ditch attempt at recognition or defense of your people. If you have no money for an army, or too few people, you hit the only way you can; At soft targets. Is it right? Hell no. Is it justified? Maybe to them.

Now, let's do as you suggest; Have the islamic leaders say "Hang on... this has gone far enough." All you have really done is polarize the Islamic world, into the "True" muslims who condemn the attacks, and the "True" muslims who favor the attacks. And that is if everyone hears about it and believes it;

The extremists will justify defying their leaders on some spurious, but morally justifiable grounds, such as outside pressure (They were forced to say it.), or even just outright rejection (Oh, if he believes that, he's no Muslim, like *I* am.).

The ordinary muslims will look up and go "Hell, I already knew that!" and get back to what they were doing.

In fact, it already happened: http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article18.shtml http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm

And unfortunately, it didn't do much.

There are no easy answers. To be sure, not pissing off the middle east would be a start. But that would mean doing some things that most Americans wouldn't like;

Namely, withdrawing support for Israel(an ally?!?) and/or withdrawing all economic footholds from the mid-east (Yeah. That's going to happen).

You do those two things, and publicly announce "We will leave you alone, if you leave us alone."

And I guarantee an instant halt to activities.

Trouble is, that would be more-or-less giving into terrorist demands... right?


Songman NOV 20, 09:18 PM
Again, all good points..

Here's places I disagree with your logic...

1.6 Billion Muslims - If they all felt that way we would have more of them doing things against us... By your own words earlier, most of these people live in poverty and illiteracy. They really have no means to do anything against us.

Namely, withdrawing support for Israel(an ally?!?) and/or withdrawing all economic footholds from the mid-east (Yeah. That's going to happen).

You do those two things, and publicly announce "We will leave you alone, if you leave us alone."
Playing footsies with the Israelies is a political game that has been going on for a long time. The average American has no love for Israel, but we do need a safe spot to land if we are going to be in that region.

Most people I know would be for the Leave us alone, we'll leave you alone idea... But that means leave us alone! Let us close our borders and take care of our own and you do the same. But that is never going to happen even if we tried it... Even if we left over there, it would appear as a sign of weakness and only strengthen Bin Laden, Hussien, and their ilk.

It is more than just giving in to terrorist demands... They wouldn't leave us alone no matter if we did leave there... We didn't do anything to bring on 9/11. We are there in force because of it.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 11-20-2003).]

Gridlock NOV 20, 09:24 PM
My advice would be stop training the terrorists in the first place. Hussein, Bin Laden-both prime examples of former US best friends. The whoel "leave us alone" thing only needs to stop in the form of getting involved in personal affairs.
Gridlock NOV 20, 09:25 PM
Oh, and did anyone notice that the thread about religion turned into a 9/11 thread, and that the thread about 9/11 turned into a religion thread?
Songman NOV 20, 09:31 PM
How can the two be separated? The people flying the planes thought they had an express ticket to Allah!

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 11-20-2003).]

Mach10 NOV 20, 09:38 PM
One other social phenomena I should mention. Not sure if it's relevant, but you be the judge;

First, people in societies form their opinions about other races based on the contact they have with them. Thing is, with many people, they get very little direct contact.

So, you get the Media. Violence is the best way to sell stories, along with stories of lurid corruption and wanton immorality.

I don't think most of us realize how lucky we are, with things like the Internet etc. We get all sorts of exposure. This tends to moderate people somewhat.

Now, let's zoom over to the middle-east. All they know about the US is what Al-Jazeera tells them. And Al-Jazeera is like the polar opposite of CNN. Same dissemination of absolute biased crap, lies by ommission, outright lies, sensationalism etc.
And sometimes, this stuff has been send second-hand, third-hand, whatever.

So, as you can imagin, give the drivel that these people are fed, they don't have a terribly high opinion of us (westerners).

So, you have these people, and these people that they are supposed to dislike intensely. Not that they have a clear idea why. Ask them, (it's the same story here) and they stammer and stutter, and cast around for specific examples (difference here, is that you can Google Search for ANYTHING that supports your stand. Total search time: 0.24 seconds) , but nothing clear or definite.

They do know one thing, though. They hates them. They wouldn't be able to pick one out of a crowd. They probably wouldn't know one by speaking to one. the whole point of propaganda is to demonize and debase your opponents. A successful propaganda campaign leaves you feeling morally, socially, and ideologically superior. You are the REAL people, the rest are faceless animals.

Basically, strengthening the built-in nationalism mentioned by jstricker.

So suddenly, you hear about something bad happening to these people who are so evil. You can't place faces to the people lost. All you care about is this apparant victory. So what would you do?

Exactly.

The dancing in the streets isn't a function about how bad the people are, but rather, how complete the brain-washing is.

you have ordinary people; farmers, workers, policemen, doctors, nurses, students, etc., etc., etc., who wouldn't lift a hand to someone they knew personally gloating over these trajedies.

Another thing to consider; How many of these glee orgies were orchestrated to "inspire" others to do the same? To send a very clear message, and thus enrage your opponent to give you more "justification" to do the things you do?

Yeah... That's about it. I'm done