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| How much will it take for people to understand the meaning of Islam? (Page 7/14) |
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Mach10
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NOV 20, 06:19 PM
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| | | quote | | Originally posted by JohnnyK: song: what the crap.. this wasn't even about being a murder.. we've already decided that people murder people.. whether it be christians or muslims.. You said if they murder people.. they aren't christian, because thats not part of the religion.. And I say if muslims murder people, they aren't muslims, because it's not part of their religion.. So now basically, we are saying anyone who kills someone else isn't religious?! |
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Being a Murderer doesn't exclude you from being a Christian. Apparantly, God treats all sin the same, so killing someone isn't any better/worse than stealing in his eyes; You've broken a rule, plain and simple. Apparantly, you can still be a good, practicing Christian, but you will have your actions hanging over your head, even after you die.
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Songman
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NOV 20, 06:19 PM
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| | | quote | | Originally posted by Mach10: A better question to ask: Given that the public is soaking up horror stories... Would we even hear about any statements made? Who's doing the reporting? Who else has heard about it? Does President George Bush go on the air everytime someone gets murdered and say "No, we aren't like that!"?
IOW, I haven't heard any statements, other than the ones implied by the article, or mentioned in passing that Islam does not tolerate such behavior.
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I don't consider President Bush a religious leader, although he is a religious man. By religious leader, I mean those at the head of the organization of the religion. For Catholics, it would be the Pope or any high ranking Cardinal, Bishop, etc. If someone were running around blowing things up in the name of the Catholic church and the Pope said that it was not recognized by the Catholic church.. then you realize that it is fanatics doing it and not the Catholic religion as a whole. We don't have that over there... True, most of the country is way behind.. But not all.. And the religious leaders of the country most likely have access to some sort of media, and from there it trickles down by word of mouth. Not the fastest way to get things done but I think you see what I mean. And yes, I think if a high Muslim leader stepped up, we would have heard about it. Instead we see Bin Laden and his cohorts shaking hands and laughing.
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jstricker
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NOV 20, 06:25 PM
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The difference, Johnny, is that those that crashed the aircraft into the WTC were promised martyrdom and the fast track into heaven while there hasn't been a single Muslim Cleric to come out and condemn those attacks. That gives their terrorist actions the approval, and not just tacit, but outward, of the religious leaders of the Muslim faith. You won't find that in Christianity. While you might find some that approve of things like murdering abortion doctors or blowing up abortion clinics, those religious leaders are a small, radical faction (and I'm in agreement with Songman, not true Christians). Of course, you can bring up the Crusades if you like, but we're not living in the time of the crusades and most Chrsitian (if not all, but I hesitate to use the word "all") have denounced the crusades as not being a reflection of Christian teaching. Now in a few hundred years perhaps the Muslim faith will feel the same way about the terrorist actions today, but we live in today and have to act on the events of today, not several hundred years in the past or future. John Stricker
| | | quote | | Originally posted by JohnnyK: song: what the crap.. this wasn't even about being a murder.. we've already decided that people murder people.. whether it be christians or muslims.. You said if they murder people.. they aren't christian, because thats not part of the religion.. And I say if muslims murder people, they aren't muslims, because it's not part of their religion.. So now basically, we are saying anyone who kills someone else isn't religious?! |
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Songman
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NOV 20, 06:25 PM
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CaddyRob, I was taking you seriously until that last little blurb about how us evil Americans are raping your poor Canadians... Free trade (as it is being done anyway) is not something that most of us evil Americans want. Our jobs are leaving, we get second rate products, etc... Just to have political relations with other countries. As I have said in MANY threads other than this one.. All these other countries have the cushion of being able to hate us... until the crap hits the fan.. then they all come running to us for help. Sorry this had to turn into another 'Evil Americans' thread. JohnnyK.. I don't even know what to say to you. Mach10 mentioned how civil this thread was.. and then you showed up sorta hot-headed. This was actually a good enlightening thread before that... [This message has been edited by Songman (edited 11-20-2003).]
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Mach10
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NOV 20, 06:28 PM
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| | | quote | | Originally posted by jstricker: So, IOW, outside of academia, which doesn't really apply in Iraq right now, you don't know either.  Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. It might even be the correct one, I certainly don't know. I DO know that little of what we're taught in the social sciences in College is very accurate with the exception of about 50% of history, and that's only 50% because history is written by the winners. I was hoping that you had lived there with the people for quite some time, or even a brief time, and could relate your experiences. My opthalmic surgeon and my ocular prosthetics craftsman have both spent a month in Afghanistan every year from the time the Russians left until the Taliban came to power and they weren't allowed back in. The last few years they've spend in Central America. They have some quite different experiences to relate than you've been taught. But what do they know, they never took all those courses in college, right? John Stricker PS: Mach10, don't take the post seriously, it was meant just to illuminate the possiblity for you that because it's written in a book and taught by human beings that may have their own personal beliefs, it doesn't necessarily follow that it reflects reality. |
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 When were you last in school? Academia is far more relevant than anything CNN spews out. Hell, some of my text-books are more current  Of 12 text-books I've had in the past 3 years, not one was published earlier than a year before the date. Besides that, Modern Issues didn't have anything to do with the text-book. It had EVERYTHING to do with *current* published journals (which I might add, having gone through rigorous critique, are far more trustworthy than news clippings), and current ethnographic studies performed by people whos area of expertise is more at the matter at hand... You seem to think that Anthropology is a bunch of dusty Ethnographies dating back to the mid 1800s, huh? No matter. I fully accept that anything written is subject to the author's own experiences. It isn't guaranteed to be universal. But I hold them in higher esteem to some Reuters reporter that will get on his knees for anything resembling a story. Tell me, what "experiences" are they reporting that contradict what I've put forth? Seriously, I'm curious.
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jstricker
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NOV 20, 06:31 PM
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Illiteracy is a problem, but you have bad numbers. "where the number of illiterate among adults above 15 year old is 65 million, representing a percentage of 43% (32% among men and 56% among women)."
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/990910/1999091003.html In Iraq, the literacy rate is published at 58%. http://www.arabdatanet.com/indexframe.asp?gotoURL=http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107644.html | | | quote | | Originally posted by Mach10: One small problem;
You have a population in which less than 10% is functionally literate. The only PA systems in common use are run by the local sect. Exactly how do you intend to "educate the masses?" Once again, secular society shows great abilities to defend itself; Even if you COULD get the message across, the grip is tight. They don't see each other as a United Islam Nation. Different sects have been warring with each other for generations. What makes you think they'd listen to each other? The Mid-East is an unpredictable bloody mess. Personally, I'm not optimistic about the US's chances of being able to change any of it, glass parking lots notwithstanding. All of this hate being spread around is the result of gross misinformation, and outright ignorance as to how these people function. It's sad; They are feared because they are misunderstood. Meanwhile, the people who we SHOULD be worried about profit enormously from the bad blood. It's one of those catch-22 thingies  |
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Songman
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NOV 20, 06:34 PM
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Chris·tian - Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane. n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. Hmmmm... nothing there about doing evil or murdering... So a true Christian that lives acording to the teachings of Jesus Christ can commit murder? I don't think so. While it is true that a murderer can be saved and become a Christian, a Christian by definition cannot commit murder. Don't tell me that it happens... I know that people professing to be Christian commit murders... But read the definition (which comes from Webster's and I happen to agree with). You cannot live according to Jesus' teachings and commit murder.
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Songman
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NOV 20, 06:37 PM
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Mach10... not to disagree with you, but we do know for a fact that history books are being re-written to be more politically correct... And we also know that history books are written from the perspective of the victor. Those two truths being held in our minds, not everything you read in a book is going to be exactly as it really is. But I do agree that you do have at least some qualification on your statements.
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Songman
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NOV 20, 06:40 PM
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This is interesting... Also from Webster's... re·li·gion - Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. Not one mention of good, evil, Heaven, Hell, anything..
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Mach10
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NOV 20, 06:49 PM
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Literacy does vary area to area. Lebanon, ofr example has a 13% literacy rate, while places like Bahrain have 82% However, your article doesn't say much about literacy in the non-urbanized areas, which is where most of the problems come up. Nor does it mention availability and mode of media information. I'll own up and say I can't remember where I got my figures, so it's more than likely I've gotten them wrong. Doesn't detract from my statement though: In the rural areas, literacy is extremely low. And this is where the militants fester. I'm sure you will agree with that. Oh, and let's leave Iraq out of this; Iraq never has been, never will be on good terms with the Militant Islam fundamentalists. Iraq (before 1991) had an extensive government-sponsored education system. In fact, Saddam was (or thought he was) a socialist. Kinda the polar-opposite to the fundamentalist extremist conservative muslim.
But that's what you been reading. What stories you got to share?
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