Archie's chop's/Mikes windows results. (Page 6/31)
jscott1 AUG 21, 06:02 PM

quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

Glass is the only way to go so its time others stepped up and spent the money



There are a small but vocal group of chop top owners that desperately WANT to buy glass windows...but alas none are available. If only someone were to organize a group buy, life would be great.
troyboy AUG 21, 07:53 PM

quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:


also will be getting the Pass side part of the chop corrected beings its doesnt match the other side.



??
Archie AUG 21, 10:41 PM
I'm glad this thread has popped back to the top.

As several people know I've spent part of the last 3 months or so in an attempt to get glass windows made that would follow the shape required to fit my chop tops.

If you all will go back to page 1 of this thread you'll see the evaluation that joshua & I did my windows, Mike's window (that joshua brought with him) & a stock Fiero side window.


If you reread that carefully, we established that Mike's window has less curvature than a stock Fiero window & my window had more curvature than the stock Fiero window.

After consulting with 3 different glass makers, I then picked one of them to send my master window to. After talking to 3 of their engineers I learned what I had suspected all along.

Here's how it goes.

If you look at a stock Fiero side window you'll see that it has more curvature at the bottom of the window than it has at the top. The Glass engineers call this a "compound" curve.

If you look closely at my windows, you'll see that it has even more of a compound curve than the stock Fiero window has. My window does have to have more curve than a stock Fiero window. After all the roof isn't any wider & it's 3" lower, so it's gotta have more curve.

If you look closely at Mikes window that joshua has in his possession, you'll see that it has the same radius or curvature all the way from the top to the bottom. The Glass engineers call this a "barrel" curve.

A barrel window is made by bending a proper pc. of safety glass over a tool with a constant curve in it. This would be a curve like you would find by bending somethng around the outside of an appropriately sized barrel. That's why they call it a "Barrel" window.

The big difference is the cost of tooling & maunfacturing.

The tooling cost of a set of barrel windows is only a few thousand $$$$, which could be spread out over the course of a batch of say 25 sets of windows.

However a compuund curve window like that seen in a stock Fiero & most every other production car window is a lot higher. I was quoted $100K to $120K for tooling alone. If I was going to be building 330,000 Fieros over a period of 5 years, the tooling costs would be easy to amortize that cost over all those windows. However, spreading those tooling costs over 25 or even 50 custom Fieros is not going to be a responsible investment no matter how you look at it.

Some people keep saying that Mike's windows will fit. Mike even says they'll fit to a knat's asas. However, I've built 25 of them so far & I stand by my statements that they won't fit to the degree that my customers would expect. That group can say it anyway they like, but a window that has considerably less curve than stock Fiero window isn't going to fit correctly into a car that requires a window that has considerably more curve than stock Fiero window.

jushua has just offered to take pictures of his window & answer questions, if anyone still has qusetions.

Back when I did my Fiero Chop Top I accepted the fact that it would be too expensive to make compound curve side windows & I chose to use the windows that I used.

The first time I saw Rich Warber's Chop Top Fiero (he didn't have any roll up windows at that time), I walked around the car a dozen times trying to figure out what made that car look so special & only after I heard someone say "Chop" did I realize what made it so special. Rich was retired at the time, but I offered him a job & he accepted that same day.

If he had widened the roof to fit barrel side windows, he would have had to make the "A" pillars wider at the top & would have had to make the 1/4 windows stand more straight up to match the curve of the barell window.

That would have taken away the "look" that attracted me to Riches car.

So, yes, you can design a car around windows that don't have enough curve, but I'm not & never have been interested in doing that.

In conclusion:

1.) I'm not going to be doing glass windows if the tooling is going to cost $100K.

2.) Everyone of my ChopTop customers knew, before they made a decision to do a chop top, what type of windows it included.

3.) No matter how much BS some of these guys put out, it isn't going to change the facts about fit as discussed on page 1 of this thread.

4.) If someone wants to plunk down $100K to finance a group buy for windows that fit the car as designed, I'll be happy to give them all the information I have.

Thanks

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-21-2008).]

joshua riedl AUG 21, 11:32 PM
I got the pictures today. I have dial up and emailed them to myself and it takes forever so if someone wants a copy or wants to post them pm me your email and I'll forward you a copy.
jscott1 AUG 21, 11:51 PM

quote
Originally posted by Archie:
The tooling cost of a set of barrel windows is only a few thousand $$$$, which could be spread out over the course of a batch of say 25 sets of windows.

However a compuund curve window like that seen in a stock Fiero & most every other production car window is a lot higher....

Thanks

Archie




Archie, thanks for the update....

I don't think anyone expects you to front $100K for the tooling to make glass windows exactly like the chop top windows we presently have today.

But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.

Yes, every one of your customers accepted the current windows when we agreed to have chop tops. But that doesn't mean that we can't dream for something better. Maybe the dream is just a dream, but Mike's windows, as imperfect as they are, CAN be made to work at some level. I have to believe that a second iteration would be better.

I have a set of Mike's windows in my parts room, and as much as the idea pains me, if a better set of chop top windows never materializes one of these days I will install the imperfect glass.
joshua riedl AUG 22, 12:38 AM

quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Archie, thanks for the update....

I don't think anyone expects you to front $100K for the tooling to make glass windows exactly like the chop top windows we presently have today.

But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.

Yes, every one of your customers accepted the current windows when we agreed to have chop tops. But that doesn't mean that we can't dream for something better. Maybe the dream is just a dream, but Mike's windows, as imperfect as they are, CAN be made to work at some level. I have to believe that a second iteration would be better.

I have a set of Mike's windows in my parts room, and as much as the idea pains me, if a better set of chop top windows never materializes one of these days I will install the imperfect glass.


just in case you try to edit this.
joshua riedl AUG 22, 12:56 AM
And if you really have a boner for not using Mikes windows then do a search for curved glass. A lot of companies will show up. Buy some glass, cut and drill the glass and send it in to be tempered. I did it for my rear window, without the curve of course.
Archie AUG 22, 12:59 AM

quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Archie, thanks for the update....


But I know this is painful to consider, but it might be possible to get an acceptable fit with a barrel curve, with a tighter radius than Mike's windows, maybe less than the current windows, but still better thank Mike's. It might not be a drop in replacement, but it might be possible to do it without making it look like a hack job.



It's actually not all that painful, I had considered that. However a couple of points came up.......

1) I don't have enough time to go back & look this stuff up to get exact quotes etc. & I'm going to be out of town for several days but..... If you remember back when Mike got his 1st set made, he didn't like the amount of curve in them & went back to the glass place to ask for more curve. As I remember it, he reported that they couldn't do more curve.

2) As you now know, a barrel window has a constant radius from top to bottom. The engineers at the glass place I was dealing with told me that barrel windows are actually bent over the radius & that there was a physical limitation of minimum radius that windows could be bent before breaking. this would seem to concur with #1 above. I don't recall what that radius is but I can call them back to find out. If you have a set of Mikes windows there you could could have the radius measured accurately in just a few minutes on a CMM.

3) If it is indeed possible to bend a barrel window to a tighter radius than what mike had made, what radius would that be? Do we have the time to make 3 or 4 sample windows with different radii, then cut them out & fit them to 2 or 3 different chop top cars? Remember that we'd have to modify the window mounting on those test cars to determine what would be an acceptable fit. When we prototyped the original windows on my car, we had a pc. of 1/4" steel plate rolled several times before we had an acceptable curve. then we made the vacuum forming tooling off of that plate. You can't make the prototype windows out of plastic because you don't have anythng with thjat large of a radius to bent it over.

It could be done, but it would take some time & a lot of fitting. You'd very likely bugger up a couple of chop top doors before you had it figured out.

You probaly have access to a CMM someplace at work, find out what that radius is.

Talk to you when i get back.

Archie
jscott1 AUG 22, 01:27 AM

quote
Originally posted by Archie:
It could be done, but it would take some time & a lot of fitting. You'd very likely bugger up a couple of chop top doors before you had it figured out.

...

Talk to you when i get back.

Archie



Yeah you make perfect sense...anything other than what we have today turns into a research project. It can be done, but who is going to pay for the research and development.

Joshua I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. There is a world of difference between flat and curved glass. Anybody can cut and temper flat glass. I have spoken to just about every curved glass company in the country and they are not exactly jumping at the opportunity to make a single set of windows for a broke Fiero owner.

I'm not wanting to use Mike's windows because I bought them for my homebrewed chop top, (which I sold). I am not wanting to cut up my Archie Chop top that I just spent 4 years trying to put together.
MstangsBware AUG 22, 04:02 PM

quote
Originally posted by troyboy:


??



The Pass NB section if you are looking from behind the car doesnt match the DRV side in the way that is set. I noticed this on a NB chop that is local and was done a few year ago. Then at the 25th I noticed the same defect on the Stinger that was done many many years ago. Looks like the mesurement they use for that side versus the other side is off and hasnt been changed. You can really notice the differance if you stand being the car about 30 foot or so. I might be able to get a picture of the local car if its needed.