You didn't say anything other than what I did... I said that these group are not Christian because it takes more than words to be Christian... Even though THEY MAY THINK THEY ARE...

Being Christian is not SAYING you are Christian.. Being Christian is ACTING like you are Christian... Huge difference... Not BULLSHIT.

Also, there is a huge difference in a 'religious organization' and an organization that says they are Christian. Think about it.

I don't agree totally with either side of this black and white argument... There are a lot of subtleties being overlooked here, but that is just the way of this forum.

The rest of the post remains

Your own view about what constitutes a good Christian/muslim/Buddhist/Atheist/whatever is TOTALLY irrelevant, when you are doing things that have any sort of impact on the world around you.

IF you are doing good things, help feeding the poor, feeding stray kittens ETC., people will give a POSITIVE association towards your religious affiliation, regardless of how you follow the rest of those teachings on your own. When you say "I fed this kitten 'cos God told me to" People go "Aw, that's sweet. I'm a christian, too, his good work reflects positively on me!"

But you get the same guy butchering prostitutes in his spare time. Suddenly, those same people want nothing to do with him, except to throw rocks.

The point I'm trying to make is that religious affiliation is irrelevant. But your association with a particular theology will color other people's perceptions.

It's funny, because the Christians chorus loud and clear "They weren't Christians!" when someone brings up something as filthy as Nazi Germany, David Koresh, or the KKK.

Actually, they WERE christian. You just won't admit it for fear of having some association with it.

It's funny, we don't have any muslims here chiming in about how wrong (or right) we are. The cynics may say they don't want to own up. Me, I say that it's not a good time to be a Muslim American at the moment.

Looks like a good argument for outside influences coming in and taking these innocents out from under tyrants and helping educate them... Or do we just let it go on for another couple thousand years?

Two things:

First, trying to undo a hundred years
(or more) of prejudice, fear, and poverty is hard, delicate work. And I can tell you, hitting them as hard as you can will solve the problem only peripherally; I.e, by eventually exterminating the lot of 'em.

These people have a preconceived notion about what the US is all about. They don't see the US as a place of freedom, of free will, or anything. They see a police-state attempting to sink it's talons in other nations.

And recent actions are reinforcing this prejudice. As long as these misunderstandings are perpetuating, you will find more and more willing to die for what they percieve as being free. In this case, Free from American Tyranny.

And if you have no money, no army, no navy... there's only one way to make yourself heard and felt.

I'm not saying the US shouldn't do anything. I'm saying that what they are doing is WRONG, and that it will NOT work.

2) Songman, you have a HUGE advantage over the average islamic peasant. First, although you have (most likely) been indoctrinated with your religion all your life, you HAVE been given vast freedom of thought by a) being taught how to read, b) actually READING other things than the bible, and c) interacting with others not necessarily of your religion.

One thing to consider is that female infanticide is (and has been ) VERY popular all over the world. It's not a muslim (or in your example Sikh) thing. It doesn't even have any basis in religion, it's a purely sociological thing.

Which is what pisses me off the most; All of these hate-crimes (and no kidding, they aRE hate-crimes) are performed by INDIVIDUALS. Not by the society as a whole.

The exception of course being large militant state groups like the Taliban.

But then again, tell me the difference between state-sponsored abuse such as we saw in the Taliban regime, and the mass-killings through political corruption in any number of South American countries? They are all FIERCLY Catholic in name. And Catholisism is all about helping the poor and paying the Church. (I said I was Catholic... I didn't say I was totally happy with it )

Perspective, people.

It amazes me; Out of all the crap being tossed around, we've had, what, 4 insightful posts in a row? That's awesome!

Quite honestly, I can't say that I know. I haven't ever visited that part of the world. I do count as friends some Muslims, but they're US citizens so I don't consider them to be an authority of how other people in the middle east view us.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Mach10: Two things: First, trying to undo a hundred years (or more) of prejudice, fear, and poverty is hard, delicate work. And I can tell you, hitting them as hard as you can will solve the problem only peripherally; I.e, by eventually exterminating the lot of 'em. These people have a preconceived notion about what the US is all about. They don't see the US as a place of freedom, of free will, or anything. They see a police-state attempting to sink it's talons in other nations. And recent actions are reinforcing this prejudice. As long as these misunderstandings are perpetuating, you will find more and more willing to die for what they percieve as being free. In this case, Free from American Tyranny. And if you have no money, no army, no navy... there's only one way to make yourself heard and felt. I'm not saying the US shouldn't do anything. I'm saying that what they are doing is WRONG, and that it will NOT work. 2) Songman, you have a HUGE advantage over the average islamic peasant. First, although you have (most likely) been indoctrinated with your religion all your life, you HAVE been given vast freedom of thought by a) being taught how to read, b) actually READING other things than the bible, and c) interacting with others not necessarily of your religion. The mid-east has an unfortunate tendency towards secular living; You don't associate with anybody else but muslims from the same sect. This breeds narrow minds.

Anthropology:
Cultural Anthropology, 74.122,
Social Organization 74.239,
Peasant Societies 74.246,
Political Systems 74.253,
Urban Anthropology 74.257,
Old World Prehistory 74.263,
Old World Civilizations: 74.265,
Human Diversity 74.286,

These are my Cultural Anthro courses. Most are somewhat boring, but ALL have a "Modern Perspective" section at the end of the year that touch on Islamic Fundamentalism, Globalization, Marxism vs. Capitalism, or combinations of the 3.

The only thing I would disagree on is whether we are doing a good thing or not. The only way to show those people that the US is not a bunch of Barbarians is to show them. Until they are freed from the tyranny we will never be able to do that. As unpopular as it may be to them because of the brainwashing, we have to start somewhere. I think the important thing now is to keep the promises that were made and get them back in control of themselves. Not an easy task for sure but I think a good direction.