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| END OF KIT CARS? (Page 41/60) |
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Archie
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OCT 21, 04:42 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Bloozberry:
 How incredibly surprising and ironic to see the mastermind behind 2/3's of #20's design (wide body, chop top, V8) take the wind out of Madcurl's sails. Bravo Archie.
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Orrrr, it could be my chance to tell off those that would like to bash Unions. 
Archie[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 10-21-2012).]
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Fiero84Freak
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OCT 21, 04:46 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
Other than chassis stuff, what does the stock Fiero crowd benefit from kit crowd?
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- Held Motorsports suspension parts and upgraded cradle assemblies
- Various interior swaps like what PISA offers
- Brake upgrades (most of the first ones were done for kits)
- Understanding the dynamics of Fiero convertibles (kit builders had sorted out cutting up Fieros as many kits require cuts, as opposed to most aftermarket modifiers whom didn't quite understand the correct way to brace cut up Fieros)
- Aftermarket body pieces (most of the Ferrari style fronts and sides are results of single pieces of kits)
The list can go on and on
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slicknick
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OCT 21, 05:03 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fiero84Freak:
- Held Motorsports suspension parts and upgraded cradle assemblies
- Various interior swaps like what PISA offers
- Brake upgrades (most of the first ones were done for kits)
- Understanding the dynamics of Fiero convertibles (kit builders had sorted out cutting up Fieros as many kits require cuts, as opposed to most aftermarket modifiers whom didn't quite understand the correct way to brace cut up Fieros)
- Aftermarket body pieces (most of the Ferrari style fronts and sides are results of single pieces of kits)
The list can go on and on |
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None of which benefit the stock Fiero crowd. Except maybe brake parts. But even then we'd prolly just see less hacks.
Automoda sorted out cutting up Fieros for Pontiac. I would trust their factory-backed Engineering far more than some kit builder.
As for the rest of the stuff like fiberglass fronts and interiors? That's up to personal opinion, but it's my belief Pontiac made a perfectly serviceable car that can look good without trying to be something that its not.
It would warm my heart to see someone repro an 88 coupe front bumper over some Ferrari piece.[This message has been edited by slicknick (edited 10-21-2012).]
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Archie
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OCT 21, 05:26 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
None of which benefit the stock Fiero crowd. Except maybe brake parts. But even then we'd prolly just see less hacks.
Automoda sorted out cutting up Fieros for Pontiac. I would trust their factory-backed Engineering far more than some kit builder.
As for the rest of the stuff like fiberglass fronts and interiors? That's up to personal opinion, but it's my belief Pontiac made a perfectly serviceable car that can look good without trying to be something that its not.
It would warm my heart to see someone repro an 88 coupe front bumper over some Ferrari piece.
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You are entitled to your opinion.
However, Fred, the guy who was Automoda didn't have factory backed engineering.
All of his work was done out of a one car garage behind his house in Cicero, IL.
As far as stock Fieros, I don't think anything in this thread is about stock Fieros.
This thread as of late has been all about Kit car/rebodied Fieros vs Customized Fieros.
And my point was you would never have the latter without first having the former.
Archie
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slicknick
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OCT 21, 05:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Archie:
As far as stock Fieros, I don't think anything in this thread is about stock Fieros.
This thread as of late has been all about Kit car/rebodied Fieros vs Customized Fieros.
And my point was you would never have the latter without first having the former.
Archie
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That was my whole point as well, regardless.
I think it's foolish to assume Fiero support would have died without the kit car scene. I mean, whatever lets you sleep at night, but people like Fieros and would have done things with them whether it was a good kit platform or not. There are so many other plain jane platforms out there with a strong community that show that this is the more likely scenario.
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Bloozberry
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OCT 21, 06:27 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
I think it's foolish to assume Fiero support would have died without the kit car scene. |
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The short-sightedness of this point of view is that the number of bone stock Fieros at this stage is probably significantly smaller than the number that have been modified to one extent or another. Without the interest generated in the Fiero platform by the kit car crowd and the "fiberglass hacks", I sincerely doubt that there would be anywhere near the number of Fiero's on the road as there are today. Half the reason there is enough demand for reproduction Fiero parts to be a viable business is because a large number of people saw that they could convert their unwanted Fiero into something more desireable rather than simply dropping it off at the junkyard. The kit car market improved the demand significantly for the Fiero. Whether that demand was for the Fiero itself or just for the chassis is irrelevent.
| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
It would warm my heart to see someone repro an 88 coupe front bumper over some Ferrari piece. |
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With all due respect, grab some fiberglass, make a mold, and start producing them yourself instead of waiting for someone to do the work for you. You might realize how hard the pioneering "fiberglass hacks" worked to keep the interest in Fieros alive.
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Archie
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OCT 21, 06:40 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
That was my whole point as well, regardless.
I think it's foolish to assume Fiero support would have died without the kit car scene. I mean, whatever lets you sleep at night, but people like Fieros and would have done things with them whether it was a good kit platform or not. There are so many other plain jane platforms out there with a strong community that show that this is the more likely scenario.
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I don't know how many years you've been around Fieros but I've been into them since 1982 when the Fiero & it's platform was announced. I felt then that with the Space Frame, Mid Engine, 4 wheel disc brakes & non structural body panels that the Fiero would be the kit car platform of the future & would replace the VW as such.
While some of the chassis parts are said to have come off the shelf, the Space frame didn't. It was unique to the Fiero.
I was there in the beginning & I remember how the Fiero chassis & the kit car industry both flourished together because each of them happened when & how they did.
The Kit car industry needed a new donor car of the future & the venders who serviced the needs of the Kit car industry back then are the key to wide following the Fiero has today.
Sure every old car no matter how good or bad has some kind of following. But name me one 1980's economy car that will attract people who will spend tens of Thousands of Dollars to upgrade them into something special.
By the way, I sleep just fine.
Archie
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F355spider
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OCT 21, 07:30 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Archie:
Think about it for a minute, if it wasn't for Unions......
There would be no standardized 40 hour work week.
No overtime for more than 40 hours.
No child labor laws
No paid Holidays
No paid vacations
No laws protecting workers rights & health
No company supplied health care
And many more benefits that even non-union employees benefit from today.
None of these benefits were given to workers by the employers out of the generosity of their hearts. Each benefit was brought about by the pressure put on, to make life better, by Unions.
Archie
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I disagree with you as always. You have no proof to your claim. You are just full of Speculation of what it could be like. It could be better today than it is.
All GM cars could be still built in the USA without UNION MOB BOSSES holding companies hostage. I don’t blame them for leaving the country if I was told I had to pay workers $50.00 an hour to screw on lug nuts I would shut down and go elsewhere also.
Laws that force workers to join unions treat millions of diverse people, most of whom want very different things, as undifferentiated collectives. That means that good workers get punished. Union culture slows us down. Look at the California cities going bankrupt from having to deal with unions.
In a real free market, because workers have choices. Employers have an incentive to maintain a good relationship with employees – one that keeps them reasonably loyal – because workers can quit and go work for a rival. In a union world this cannot happen.
Union rules hurt workers because they stifle growth by making companies less flexible.
Unions eventually hurt union workers because unionized company’s atrophy. Non-union Toyota grew, while GM shrank. JetBlue Airlines blossomed, while unionized TWA and Pan Am went out of business. Unions “protect” workers all the way to the unemployment line.
I could go on and on but all anyone has to do is look at the at will states like Texas you have 4% unemployment here and we are growing more every day while the states with unions are well I don’t have to say it we all know how they are doing.
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madcurl
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OCT 21, 08:32 PM
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Here's a couple of questions. What type of Fieros are supporting the majority of the Fiero venders today? At Fiero shows what are the types of cars represented there, replicas or modified Fieros? Giving that a large majority of replicants have a duke or the 2.8 engine in the back isn't a major chunk of pocket money for kit kar companies.
If anything the replica companies are only supporting the fiberglass industry and maybe suspensions, but still the majority of Fiero owners make up the bulk of the suspension upgrades, engine swaps, and brakes.
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Fiero84Freak
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OCT 21, 08:32 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by slicknick:
None of which benefit the stock Fiero crowd. Except maybe brake parts. But even then we'd prolly just see less hacks.
Automoda sorted out cutting up Fieros for Pontiac. I would trust their factory-backed Engineering far more than some kit builder.
As for the rest of the stuff like fiberglass fronts and interiors? That's up to personal opinion, but it's my belief Pontiac made a perfectly serviceable car that can look good without trying to be something that its not.
It would warm my heart to see someone repro an 88 coupe front bumper over some Ferrari piece.
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Yeah I actually have to agree with Archie on his post in response to yours (not speaking about the whole Union-thingy, but in Fieros in general).
If you have only been into Fieros for maybe ten years or so and weren't around them in the 80s then it's difficult for individuals to understand particular aspects of the Fiero history. One in particular is convertible Fieros. Most ALL Fiero convertible offers have been really bad. REALLY bad. Even Automoda. The issue - as Archie pointed out - is convertible Fieros were built working off of what was already an established platform, cutting into a frame that would have to essentially retain the same or similar structural integrity as a 'stock' Fiero to work. While one would think that this should be quite easy to modify, in actuality this was VERY difficult to get right. The primary reasons where because individuals did not understand the true means by which to properly secure something like the single stamped design Fiero space frame from twisting. Most people simply applied U bars along the sides of the car and an X brace, which do work. However, PROPER reinforcement of the Fiero chassis when modified for a convertible actually requires additional strengthening around areas such as the gas tank tunnel and at the front and rear bulk heads. All putting a U and an X brace does for a Fiero chassis is eventually tie two twisting points together - similar to those that think throwing on a strut tower brace from strut to strut is going to somehow magically stiffen their vehicle.
Another major issue you will see with convertible Fieros is a good deal of them didn't get "finished". That is - after the primary conversions were done they had issues such as being turned into permanent roadsters or had shells for the top but weren't completed. Thus, these convertibles weren't driven with the frequency of "normally" driven Fieros to see excessively high mileage. Thus further, why may issues with twisting frames and improper bracing issues do not appear in a good amount of cars.
Not to say that simple bracing doesn't work. I know there's a member here (I apologize as I have forgotten whom it is. Shame on me...) that has a white bumper pad convertible that has a good amount of mileage on it (I think way over a quarter of a million). A lot of it too is going to be dependent on whom did/does the conversion and in what manner.
And the point that I'm eventually getting to is kit builders - even in the 80's - understood the proper means by which to cut up Fieros. For those of you that have never worked on a Countach or Diablo kit car, ALL of them require you to cut the roof, even the non-stretch kits (except PISA's Artero and EuroWorks Mirage X, which EuroWorks no longer offers). I think many people get seriously confused because they see "non-stretch" and think no chassis modifications are required. What you have to do is remove the top of the car, and install what is essentially a tube roof setup to replace the stock bits of the chassis. If you simply try to lay a Countach or Diablo kit body over a stock roof Fiero it's going to sit ridiculously high up. Kit cars builders quite early on devised and figured out all sorts of means by which to ensure the chassis wouldn't see flexing and/or would be properly braced at all times. Remember also as well that many quality kits would see a stretch would see further bracing for the stretch itself.
All of this knowledge is quite easy to locate, but the knowledge is in a consortium for the replica and kit car world. Not much knowledge exists in this same consortium for convertibles, primarily due to most being aforementioned 'hack' jobs. Kit builders needed this sort of knowledge though because the replica and kit car world used to be a seriously brutal world. A great many, MANY, kit cars came and went and are still around in some form. Even Archie himself is subjected to such issues in the kit car world. Not to put him on the spot, but ask Archie (or he'll likely respond here) how many of those GT40 replicas he makes he has sold? He has more than the knowledge needed to construct the cars, due to him having worked on all the major details. Kit building for a business is quite a difficult endeavor, but before one can even get kits underway you ABSOLUTELY have to get demos built and presentable. EuroWorks has done this, Archie did this with his chop tops, mirads of other kit builders did it. Kit builders had to work out these details though to ensure what they were putting out actually worked. Most convertible builders built what would work in the need of the moment. Automoda potentially being an exception, but not to the point where such a product was quite ready for real serious "production," hence why even among Automoda cars themselves there are varying degrees of the build.
The kit car world - like it or not - has done a tremendous amount for the Fiero image, both good and bad. However, I have to say that most of this image - both on the good and bad side - was dependent on kit cars themselves. With the engine fire reputation and all-around poor quality 80's build that Fieros carry, if not for kit cars people likely wouldn't have given two flips about a Fiero. It would have fallen into a very niche' market that essentially would have seen NO aftermarket. People would have either really liked, or really hated the car. Nevermind the fact that there is very little in the realm of aftermarket as it is, but really if not for the kit car market the Fiero would have essentially faded into obscurity as being just a chalk mark of failures on GM's part. Believe me, I love Fieros and love and have loved mine - and I would likely accept such a fate had Fieros been categorized as such - but the populace at large? No way. It may be bad that Fieros are known as bastardizations for kit cars, but at least they're known for something. At least with what we have that is available, individuals whom are or may particularly be interested in Fieros can at least be interested in varying degrees, rather than simply outright hate or love for the car.
And at least with kit cars and replicas, individuals had and still to a degree have a drive to keep some sort of aftermarket aflame. I can guarantee you Mr Mikes sells a tremendous amount of his seats to Ferrari replica builders, and if not for Amida most Ferrari replicas would have nowhere near the correct interior setup. With these markets then comes further spilling back into the Fiero community at large. At the end of the day, it may not be factory OEM style aftermarket, but it's at least an aftermarket.
That should all account for something. All possible thanks to replicas and kit cars. But I have to say this thread has gotten so far off track now it's crazy. The original topic was "end of kit cars" due to KIT CAR magazine going under, primarily due to the rather lower influx of Fiero-based replicas. Replicas and kit cars themselves haven't gone away. In fact, I think one very viable chassis to "look out for" in the near future will be the 1st generation Porsche Boxster. That car has already been used for a good deal of replicas, and you can find ones with body damage and minor fender bender issues for $5,000 and below. Really cheap, especially with what one is given to work with using such a chassis. I can see many future Lamborghini kit cars being built off of them, although I think Ferrari kit builders will begin to look elsewhere.
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