Install sub without amp??? (Page 3/4)
timmer MAR 16, 03:10 PM
dude you have a problem !!! a member asked for opinions and you sir are full of misinformation if you want to flame and in general make a fool of your self then get drunk go to a bar and end yourself in jail you should count yourself fortunate to be amongst some very intelligent people her so JUST SHUT THE HELL UP JAMES !!!!! and pray your are not banned from the forum . ps: appologies are in order james
Synthesis MAR 16, 06:46 PM
Cliff, I suggest you close this thread, or delete it please...
RyNelson. If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me with them. I will do everything in my power to help you out.

I am sorry that there are so many immature people out there.


Can't we all just get along?

musicman_L7 MAR 17, 10:51 AM
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:

Cliff, I suggest you close this thread, or delete it please...
RyNelson. If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me with them. I will do everything in my power to help you out.

I am sorry that there are so many immature people out there.


Can't we all just get along?


I'd have to agree, this has gotten out of hand for something so simple. I could understand if this started as a thread about someone not liking someone's business, or product, but Christ, this is crazy!


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Nic

87 GT, 5-speed, awaiting steering rack, and completion of exhaust work

rynelson85 MAR 17, 12:42 PM
Me and my friend decided to wait on the sub transfer for 2 reasons. One: they are installed in his car until he finishes building a box for his new subs...and two: I just bought 4 new wheels and tires a few minutes ago. So, I will be doing this the right way and hooking them up with an amp.
-Ryan
Mach10 MAR 17, 08:18 PM
HAHAHAHA!!! This is the best thread I've read in weeks! 007mm boy is the best thing since Dude16.

Man, Freud would have a feild-day with this.


Firstly, you *could* theoretically run a subwoofer from a deck. My pioneer P430 has a built-in option to run a sub out the rear-channels, complete with low-pass filters.

But that's a special case.

First of all; Here's some information for the little children:

POWER-HANDLING; This is *THE* most abused method of rating ever used. There are two main types; Max. Power handing, and RMS power-handling. Max handling refers to how much power the unit can take before it fails. RMS power refers to how much power the unit can take, with a pink-noise signal, for 8 continuous hours without failiure.

But there's even more to it than that. When you describe "Power Handling" and "Failiure" you aren't specifying what is failing. There are 2 main types; You have thermal failiure, when the voice coil actually melts, or Mechanical failiure, when the voice coil gets pounded apart, or the surround tears free, or the spider gets ripped apart.

Most cheapie-brands rate their power-handling as THERMAL failiure, to wit, the power at which the voice coil vaporizes. The speaker will start distorting and bottoming out WAY before it reaches thermal peak. This makes the subs look better on paper, but really, who cares how hot the sub can get before vaporizing, right?

More expensive (and reputable) brands rate based on a combination of mechanical and thermal properties of the unit. They take the engineered X-max (excursion) of the woofer and combine it with the heat-dissipating properties of the coil(s). The end result is that you may get a lower rating. But that rating will be accurate, and the output at that power will be consistant. You can make cheaper woofers distort when you throw less power than even the RMS rating at them. Or, you can throw more power at a better woofer than it is rated at; I had a Kicker c-12 that would not distort even a *little bit* before it'd start bottoming out. And that was when I was throwing close to 800w @ 2ohm into it. The woofer was rated at 500w max.

But on top of that is the amp behind it. There are things to consider, like "Cone-control," THD(%), and power-spiking.

First of all, mis-matching components is risky business. In general, you want a higher-powered amp than speakers. But when you match, go by RMS, not MAX power. Going the other way creates HUGE problems.

Firstly, a lower-rated amp doesn't have any measure of power throttling other than a thermal breaker. This means that if the amp heats up too much, it cuts out. An amplifier circuit is a very simple design. You can't throw too much into it without a) going digital or b)creating distortion/noise.

Basically, the amp will keep putting out power until something stops. If you shorted out the outputs, for example, the thing would fry before the thermals cut out, due to the massive current surge running through it. I=V*R, people. Putting a monster 2-ohm 18" woofer on a deck *WILL* melt it in a matter of moments.

There are 2 things that take up power in a speaker. First, there's the resistance of the coil itself. This is usually about 4ohms in a car-audio system, but can be as low as 2ohms or 1oh. Next, you have the amount of work that the power-source (amp) has to do to actually MOVE the cone. This will make the power that's being drawn go through the roof on a larger speaker. Remember, that wattage is just a measure of work done. And work can either mean "Air moved." or "Heat generated."

Now, based on design, an amplifier circuit will continue to dump as much power as the device it's driving asks for. The limiting factors are a) Thermal shut-down, b) Mathematical limit (based on power source) c) Amplifier gain, and d) source voltage.

You'll NEVER reach a the mathematical limit on the amplifier. Well, not for longer than a couple of nanoseconds, anyway. We've talked about thermal shutdown and vaporizing .

Your gain describes the amplitude at which you are amplifying the incoming signal. This is based on the specs of the control system being used, potentiometer size etc. Basically it's used to balance the incoming signal to the amplifier's outgoing power output, so that you don't over-stress the amp.

At a certain point of amplification, you start getting signal loss, simply due to the physical limits of the components to amplify the signal. This results in "clipping" which means the peaks of the sound wave ar chopped and flattened. Not only does this make it sound terrible, but it also excerts HORRIBLE stress on the woofer, from a thermal, and mechanical standpoint.

Most waves are nice and sloped. At the top of the peak, it levels off gently, and starts to fall. Remember that the speaker tries to follow this line EXACTLY. In a regular sinewave, the slop starts off gradual, and increases as it approaches vertical, then decreases and starts heading down. Imagine the stress on the amplifier and the speaker if half-way up the slope, when the woofer is at it's maximum velocity, it's suddenly told to STOP dead. The woofer is riding on an electromagnet, and it is the AMP that has to work to make it move, and stop.

You get massive current spikes as the amp tries to stop the cone (with varying degrees of success), which can damage internal components on the amplifier, and cause thermal stress (or mechanical stress) on the speaker.

Basically it's a bad thing.

So um, yeah. 007 sucks ass.

DJRice MAR 17, 08:53 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by Mach10:

Basically, the amp will keep putting out power until something stops. If you shorted out the outputs, for example, the thing would fry before the thermals cut out, due to the massive current surge running through it. I=V*R, people. Putting a monster 2-ohm 18" woofer on a deck *WILL* melt it in a matter of moments.

V=I*R or I=V/R

{otherwise the discussion sounds good}

Dillon

Mach10 MAR 17, 08:59 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by DJRice:

V=I*R or I=V/R

{otherwise the discussion sounds good}

Dillon


Oh'd

Damn my lexdysia!

Intel MAR 18, 03:57 PM
Actually there is an article about Freud analyzing Bond!!
http://www.universalexports.net/00Freud.html

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Jorgen Larsson
1987 Fiero GT
1968 Corvette Conv.
1998 Ford Escort RS Ghia

Raydar MAR 18, 09:01 PM
God. I don't believe I'm actually jumping into this mess...

I don't think anbody has touched on this, yet.
The original poster said that he wanted to hook the sub to the pre-outs.
Line level, IOW. NOT speaker level.
It's a low-level, high impedence signal.
Hooking a sub straight across them will probably result in just about no sound out of the sub, but probably (depending how the deck is designed) no damage, either. Even if the output (Remember, it's a pre-out. Low voltage. Low current.) is dead shorted, I'm guessing that the signal is isolated enough that no harm will come to pass. There just isn't enough current flowing to make anything hot enough to be damaged.
I could be wrong about the electronics. Some decks have several volts of pre-out signal. So the potential may be there. But I still don't think *that* small of a signal could even begin to damage a sub.

As an aside,
A rule of thumb that I learned is that you can hook nearly any amp to nearly any speaker. As long as you don't hear distortion, you aren't going to damage anything. Has worked for me for many years.

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Raydar

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Phuk Phrance! ...until I'm told to change it.

stimpy JAN 03, 10:28 AM
test