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| archie is gettin bashed on streetfire? (Page 25/53) |
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Custom2M4
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MAR 16, 02:42 PM
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I'd personally like a refund of the last 15 mins glacing through this thread....
It's a little rediculous that anyone cares what engine is in someone elses car. If I saw a 5 hp john deere motor in a fiero I would think it was pretty cool. Archie installs V8's into fieros... Who cares. I like V8's, I like fieros. I also happen to like 4cyls and V6's, but V8's are still cool. I'm not going to say that my northstar is better then a 350 or a 3.4 DOHC , because I don't care.
What ever happened to pontiacs "Drive Excitement", not bicker about some kid across the country because he doesn't like me. Just laugh it off. It won't bug you, when you could care less. ------------------
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Chase Wakeham,
Concept Fabrications
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Jrgicehc
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MAR 16, 02:45 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Leafy:
The SBC is an old stone age engine. These days you can see 300hp out of a Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6 because of technology. |
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http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7.shtml
is that not technology?
who cares what whos running, how about no one talks **** until someone beats someone else in the 1320
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Formula88
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MAR 16, 02:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Leafy:
Although I would have to still maintain that some sort of proof is a nice way to avoid discrepancies between claimed Horsepower numbers a person post on the internet and the actual numbers the car runs.
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I say that the burden of proof is in the Numbers. If I can't find "C" by A over B, then some thing's not right. Maybe though like you said, to keep things calm around here give someone the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure most can handle that.
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What's with all the burden of proof crap? Can't people enjoy their cars without getting lawyers involved?
When I'm talking to someone about cars and they tell me their car makes some outrageous amount of horsepower or runs faster than I can believe, I just smile and nod. It doesn't hurt me to listen to their claim and if I have a problem with it, I don't just whine and call them a liar and demand proof - I either challenge them to a race to prove it, AND THEN SHOW UP FOR THE RACE, or I go on my way.
What's the motivation behind "calling someone out?" Are you trying to protect the truth, or are you just trying to win an argument? If I say my stock 2.8 Fiero makes 400 HP and you don't believe me, why should I care? If you want me to prove it to you, why should I? If you challenge me to a race and I accept, then we can settle the dispute man to man. This internet arguing is stupid and pointless.
I don't think people should make outrageous claims about their cars, but I'm not going to stomp my feet and demand notarized proof of every figure they spout, either.
And there is a difference in mindset between the younger crowd and older crowd, in general. Many of us "old" people like to build cars to enjoy, but not necessarily race. We like to drive them on the street and we might race them on the track from time to time. We might spend $10,000 building a car that can only run a 14 second quarter mile. We might spend more than that. Why? Because it's how we want the car built and we have the money to spend. Sure, you can go faster with less money, but that's not our sole motivation. If it were, we certainly wouldn't be building Fieros. We'd probably just buy a motorcycle and be done with it.
So, if you can build a slow 12 second car for $50, more power to you. Check out the Grassroots Motorsports challenge. You'll find lots of people going fast on very little money in very unique ways. They'll put your ingenuity to the test.
But if you're building a street car to primarily drive on the street - accept the fact that not everyone gives a crap about drag racing and quarter mile times.
Over the years, I've had a few performance cars: a 69 Firebird 350, a 72 Trans Am 455 H.O., and an 87 Grand National. Some of them were modded, and none of them were ever raced on a drag strip or dynoed. And it didn't diminish my enjoyment of any of them.
 [This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-16-2008).]
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Jrgicehc
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MAR 16, 02:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Custom2M4:
I'd personally like a refund of the last 15 mins glacing through this thread....
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agreed
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Leafy
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MAR 16, 03:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by DrCPU:
Leafy,
I need to add this observation. Your quote indicates to me you are younger and don't understand the mentality of the older crowd who don't care so much about technology. My harley was a pushrod with carb. It was big, underpowered, but could be built up to insane levels of power. I could do all my own wrenchin. I grew up in the days when a Nova or Vega had a SBC or LBC installed with a six pack carb setup. My buddies had the Barracudas with the 318's - three speeds. My Dad had a 63 Vette (convertible) with the base 300hp turbojet. When you started any of the engines above it is was "blub-blub, gurgle, blug blub, wraaaaaaaaaaaa" when you hit the gas. It shook at idle and the entire body would move with the pulse of the engine. When I was at a stop light with the Harley - everyone and I mean everyone would be transfixed by the engine bouncing around in the frame - I had a Dyna rubber mount.
I can't speak for other SBCers, but I want the flip flop bouncy bounce and raw low RPM torque and HP that a crate SBC gives me. They are cheap and relatively easy to have maintained compared to overhead cam engines. I know I'll get flammed for that comment. I grew up with pushrods - and even though I've got access to newer technology don't want to give up on the other niceties the older technology gives me. Kinda like keeping a good less attractive girlfriend and not booting her because a new beauty (most likely lots of silicone or salene) walks down the street.
Your comment that SBC are stone age is a clear indication to me that you've predetermined for the most part that an SBCer is somehow a looser or worse. I know that comment is stretching a little - but this is text and I only have so much time. Sorry.
I know you're asking for proof of numbers. Hey I posted mine - but remember that my setup has not been tuned. It was running hugely rich. Yeah the TPI isn't the best way to feed an SBC - but if you look at my build thread pics you can't deny one thing. It's not just an engine - it's art.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but the chrome TPI with the Siamesed runners is way cool to me - and to almost anyone who sees it in person. I placed in the V8 class at Fierorama last September - runner up to that kick ahahaa 750 HP runner I mentioned earlier.
Having said all of the above - I'm easilly awed by anyone who does a great job - regardless of engine type. I'll always pick the pushrod over the OHC - or DOHC just because I can smile at the memories of cars than can be compared to "jiggling jello" at idle...... It may not seem rational to you, but you had to have lived it to really appreciate it - or at least be open to the idea that others find it "cool" or "phat" or whatever.
Archie's post that details some of the above is a very fond memory of what life used to be like for me. He's right on the button.
As a final comment I "dig" all engines and would like to see someone put a "new" Supra twin turbo in a Fiero. Would be cool - but it's gonna cost them a ton of cash - at least as much as 5 big decked out SBCs.
Dave |
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Dave, I totally understand it. I enjoy more technology and the simplicity that it brings to my life. You enjoy less technology and the simplicity it brings to yours. That's fine.
When I say the SBC is a "Stone Age" engine, that's how I feel about it compared to modern engines out there. I don't expect anyone's pre-existing opinion to change if they have something they like, but knowledge is power, and if my 16 year old cousin comes to me and asks "Sean what engine is best to put in my cavalier" I'll probably say to him, "Well you could do an ecotec swap from one of my Cobalts, because it makes decent power stock, it's lightweight and you can make tons more if you want to."
300 Horsepower is cool in a Fiero, any way you look at it. If you enjoy 300 Horsepower out of an SBC, that's fine. I just get ticked though when I know, that 300hp from a 2.2 Turboed Ecotec in a FIero is less than Half the weight of the SBC, and making just as much power. It means the Power to weight ratio is better, and I'm going to get there faster.
To go as fast as you can go as efficently as you can be, that's what gets me going! But that's just me. Have you ever heard what an ecotec sounds like without exhaust? Haha you wouldn't want to. SBC for the Win on exhaust sound for sure. 
I don't think that anyone with a Fiero is a Loser, although there are probably Losers who have owned Fieros Before. What you have does not determine who you are. We're talking about cars, engines, the people who drive them and love them, and the people who lie to get attention. I also think that Collectively we've come to the conclusion that we all have a mutual respect for each other based on our differences of opinion and have pulled this thread away from the trashcan.
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typhoon
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MAR 16, 03:23 PM
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. [This message has been edited by typhoon (edited 03-16-2008).]
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Leafy
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MAR 16, 03:42 PM
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KennyC
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MAR 16, 04:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Emc209i:
The problem being, many of us in the Fiero community don't like outcome of SBC's being installed with crush bent exhaust, hot air intakes, heavy adapter plates etc. The car sounds amazing, but then falls on its face at dyno events, drag races, whatever you enter it in. This creates bad rep for the community as a whole. This is the issue we'd like to see addressed.
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Saying that people can't afford Mandrel bends isn't selling me. That should be part of the install. I'm talking about people that install a V8 with your mail order kit, I'm talking about cars that come out of your shop that you built. Also how hard would it be to install a fender intake?
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That is a point between.... well.... a customer and archie on an individual basis. If they wanted it they can demand it, or NOT have archie use his particular exhaust. There is NO shortage of custom exhaust shops that would be more than happy to bend a system for someone.
I dont like the interior pontiac put in the new solstice.... doesn't mean I crap on GM every chance I get and complain for them to redesign it for me, plenty of people are buying them and if so, they must be happy with the product they expected or they wouldnt have gone for it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen an Archie customer post yet that they wanted a different exhaust and didn't get it in this thread....
Oh, and if you know anything about adapter plates, they are intentionally heavy construction to be DURABLE.... it's not limited to archie's product, go to an off-road 4x4 site where guys run adaptor plates... besides, I seriously cannot see how an adaptor plate hurts performance, its not as if its a rotating mass where a reduction would made a difference. Just take a custom speaker out of your car and save more weight than the plate costs.
The bad rep for the community as a whole comes from guys like shawn posting videos all over the internet crapping on SBC cars.... not the kit itself. Want to eliminate the bad rep, eliminate the troll.
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crzyone
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MAR 16, 04:52 PM
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I don't care how much power any engine puts out. If you have a 170hp 305 V-8 fiero, fine, I don't care. Its the guys that install a motor and say it's 400+hp and you KNOW it can't make that much... that's what bugs me.
I've never called anyone out that I thought didn't deserve it. If you show me a low 11 second time slip and I also see a stock TPI manifold, I will ask questions. By asking questions earlier in the thread I found out that the time slip was done with a carbed 383. I'm fine with that, it is possible. He atleast has a time slip which is more than most people. It has since been detuned with a TPI manifold which won't be as powerful but it should be more daily drivable and easier to live with. Great.
I don't think a SBC suits a small car with a weak driveline, but Archie is doing some things to help. The aluminum flywheel is probably the best thing to come out his shop in years. Now you don't have to worry as much about grenading transmissions by shock loading them with a 30# flywheel. This is great when bolted to a manual transmission that is rated for a much smaller engine. I'm sure peole like Tina who take their cars to the track will appreciate such a flywheel. Should save her a few transmissions.
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fieroguru
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MAR 16, 05:07 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Emc209i:
The problem being, many of us in the Fiero community don't like outcome of SBC's being installed with crush bent exhaust, hot air intakes, heavy adapter plates etc. The car sounds amazing, but then falls on its face at dyno events, drag races, whatever you enter it in. This creates bad rep for the community as a whole. This is the issue we'd like to see addressed.
I personally don't want to see Archie fall on his face- I want him to do it right so I can recommend his swaps.
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A crate ZZ4 is rated at 355 hp. Oreif's was installed by Archie using his Kit (sanderson headers and Archie exhaust) and dyno'd 309 hp to the wheels and runs the 1/4 in 12.3. That is less than 13% loss from the engine's rated performance, to the wheels and well within the range of the nornal manual fiero drive line loss. Could it be better with a higher flow exhaust and lighter flywheel, sure... but it is hardly falling on its face the way it is. So if by design Archies SBC kit makes a Fiero slow... what happened here?
What happened was a proven combination of parts, properly tuned that provided good results. These results can be repeated if the owner chooses to do so.
Take the exact same engine and put a stock TPI on it and it WILL fall on its face. Add some 2" unported Ram's Horns and again power will be disappointing. Fail to tune the carb or EFI on any application and results will be dissappointing. These are the choices some SBC owners have choosen to make (and I am not faulting them for their choices, they built it the way they wanted it), so when these choices lower the power output of the engine, then how is that Archie's fault? Or an issue with his kit?
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