Well since I'm running 12.3 @ 111 mph I guess GM's advertisement is correct. Thanks for posting the pic.
Which now goes back to Emc209i ~ I installed a normally aspirated engine that advertised 355hp and would make my car a low 12-second car AND IT DOES. If Archie's kit somehow causes a power loss, I'm not seeing it nor are the few others that I know as well with similarly equipped Fiero's with ZZ4's.
troyboy
MAR 15, 08:06 AM
V8, V6, 4banger, they all suck!!!! I only have 1HP (hamster Power) and that's at the wheel and I'll take on anyone for pinks.
Edit: I guess this argument will be mute when the best of both worlds comes out next year. A stock GM supercharged V8 with respectable gas mileage at over 600hp.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 03-15-2008).]
Archie
MAR 15, 08:12 AM
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
btw Oreif, I like your car, was nice when it was 3.4 too.
You know, sometimes I think some of you people don't know how to read. Or maybe you want to get in on the bashing so bad but you don't know what to say. But, by God, you gotta be able to come up with something better than this.
The Specs on that crate engine are listed below the engine, the part you didn't include with your post is the description:
quote
An aluminum-headed 350 that makes 355 horses! As far as crate engines go, this one is a winner. The ZZ4 350 Turn-Key crate engine has been one of our most popular high performance crate engines since we started GM Performance Parts. Its legendary status is based on an incredible performance level that is stone cold reliable. We've packed the ZZ4 350 crate engine with a forged steel crankshaft, hypereutectic pistons, hydraulic roller camshaft and lifters, and aluminum cylinder heads. The ZZ4's Corvette-derived high-performance heads feature high velocity intake runners and D-shaped exhaust ports to promote efficient and unobstructed flow through the engine – providing strong power and torque at all RPM levels. The ZZ4 350 is delivered with an aluminum dual-plane intake manifold, HEI distributor, cast iron water pump, damper, and flexplate. Our Turn-Key ZZ4 350 crate engine also ships with all the parts you need to get it running. That includes an accessory drive package, fuel pump, chrome air cleaner kit, Holley 750-cfm carburetor, starter, and spark plug wires. The ZZ4 comes to you with a full 355 horsepower and 405 lb.-ft. of torque. With its high level of performance and durability, it could very well be the perfect crate engine – able to meet the needs of car builders from all phases of the motorsports world. *Applications have not been validated. They are merely suggestions of how you might enjoy your GM Performance Parts crate engine. Some applications may affect engine warranty. Some applications may not be emission legal; check state and local ordinances.
NOW PAY ATTENTION
No place in there does it say that that engine is going to turn your 40 passenger School Bus into a 12 sec. Bracket Car.
Jeeeez..... Some of you guys need to get a life.
Archie
------------------ Sig by Custom2M4
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 03-15-2008).]
troyboy
MAR 15, 08:37 AM
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:
V8, V6, 4banger, they all suck!!!! I only have 1HP (hamster Power) and that's at the wheel and I'll take on anyone for pinks.
Edit: I guess this argument will be mute when the best of both worlds comes out next year. A stock GM supercharged V8 with respectable gas mileage at over 600hp.
I'll backup my claims
fieroguru
MAR 15, 09:10 AM
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt: Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
All the swaps that have been documented to have lost 100 hp to the wheels fall into 3 catagories:
300+ hp crate engine with TPI: The TPI was designd for the 305 and designed to enhance torque as a replacement of the 350. Putting it on a 350 will boost torque even higher, but starts to choke off airflow above 4500 (above which most crate engines make their peak HP). So placing a stock TPI on a ZZ4 will cause a significant HP loss... that is just the way is works. Building a high HP TPI takes a very carefull balance of parts and many upgraded TPI parts to remove as much restriction in the TPI unit as possible.
300+ hp crate engines with different carbs and running any manifolds except the Sanderson headers: Most likely their loss was due to a combination of carb tuning and exhaust flow. You can not just slap an out of the box carb on anything and expect it to perform optimally. Exhaust manifolds can also make or break a swap and there is a huge variation in flow between the different available combinations that fit the fiero application.
Other engines of unknown origin, build quality, use of proper parts (heads), etc (expected HP was not right): Since these engines are not a crate motor that GM specificlly developed (or some other crate engine builder), how the combination will perform is pure speculation until it is dynoed. The heads are where it is at. Vortec heads (aluminum or cast iron) or the Aluminum TPI/ZZ4 heads are consistant performers in unported configurations and have been used on 350HP+ crate motors without port work. Any other stock head choice will have a wide variety of success depending on the quality of the work (porting) done to the heads (not all porting work provides the expected results - skill/experience matters).
The SBC engine combos that have had favorable dyno results are: Crate engines with properly tuned carbs and running Sanderson headers - several of these swaps have seen less than 50 hp loss from crank to wheel. There is also at least one TPI (using aftermarket parts and good heads) with Sanderson headers with good results.
I have not come across favorable fiero dyno results with the Rams Horns manifold (not to say there isn't one) and not all Rams Horns are created equally (ported vs. non-ported, 2.5" vs 2", Corvette style vs. non-corvette, aftermarket reproductions vs. stock 60's/70's).
My theory is that there are HUGE variations in exhaust flow potential among the available exhaust manifold/header options. If you look at stock manifold options, the Corvette LT1/LT4 variants went up to 350 hp on factory rated engines, but will not clear the alternator for the Archie alternator placement. The stock 93+ Camaro LT1 manifolds (using two driver sides) are the only manifolds installed on a factory engine rated close to 300 hp that will fit a Fiero SBC, but I have yet to see someone use them or dyno with them. The 2.5 Corvette Rams Horns were on 350 hp engines in the 60's but had a completely different rating system, so it is difficult to determine how much HP they will actually support in todays standards. The Sanderson headers seem to be the best proven combination so far, but have a reputation for cracking (not good for daily driving) and I have not seen any long tube or larger (than 1 5/8) tube headers that have been dyno proven for a Fiero.
I would love to see a dyno comparison (even if it is an engine dyno) between all available exhaust setups (and proper tuning of engine to exhaust) and see how everything falls out. I could loan multiple sets for testing (81 covette tubular headers, 1 5/8" Pacesetter LT1 headers, LT1 Caprice manifolds - 2 driver sides, Speedway motors tru-ram manifolds, and possibly a secret header setup I am working on)
prostreet505
MAR 15, 09:11 AM
Just to clarify a couple things:
My comments in this thread were directed towards one person ( Emc209i ), about a 12 second daily driver being slow. Then I get jumped on by his buddies who resort to name calling. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion about what is fast and what is slow. I never once stated anything about a sbc is better than the 3800sc or any other engine.
Maybe some of you people should do some research about me before jumping to conclusions. If you don't want to do some research, let me fill you in on several things. I am a well established business owner that builds, installs, and tunes high performance engines. When I say hp engines, I am not just referring to the sbc. I build everything under the sun from SC Ecotecs to 502 big blocks, imports to domestic, you name it, I build it. I have been doing this for 15+ years and my father ("God rest his Soul") has done it for 50+ years before turning the business over to me. So if your looking for an argument about what engine is better, you are barking up the wrong tree.
I am the last person you would want to piss-off, because I would be the first person to give the shirt off my back to help the Fiero community out. That is why I am trying to start a second business dedicated strictly to the Fiero.
With that being said, I am done with this thread.
TiredGXP
MAR 15, 09:29 AM
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:
I'll backup my claims
ROFLMFAO
Jncomutt
MAR 15, 09:47 AM
quote
Originally posted by prostreet505:
With that being said, I am done with this thread.
Its cool man, it's all in good fun. I know this is teh internets and its serious business and all, but don't let it get ya riled up. I could really care less if the Archie swapped 350s make 200 or 400 hp, but I see these kinda threads all the time and I figured it would be fun to jump in one for once and sling some sh!t around for a bit, and it was.. I wasn't trying to say you're a bad person or that I "e-hate" you or your lack in the e-rep yatta yatta yatta, just kinda getting some laughs at the amount of sincerity being poured into this thread.
To turn things around a bit, good luck with the business. Its nice to see people trying to get more things goin for the Fiero, but as this thread points us, us fiero people are hard to please..
Leafy
MAR 15, 10:27 AM
quote
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:
A: Archie's kits start at $1000, I dont think there is anyway to get to 10k with archie, just doing an engine swap B: Its been said a million plus times, but I guess I have to say it again There is NO replacement for displacement. Boost only supplements displacement. Take a equal 3.8 SC at 7 PSI ( 3.8x 1.5 = 5.7) and a 350 (5.7), and the 350 will win, run it with a turbo'd 2.0L pushing ~20PSI (something like 5.7) and it would get its ass handed to it. There is always going to be loss, lag, heat, etc with a boosted engine. Yes you can build that 3.8SC to be faster than the stock 5.7, but you could do the same with the 5.7l
A Stock TPI head will push about 187CFM. A Stock LSJ Head will push 600 CFM. What does that tell me? The boost you push through it will be more efficent because the head flows more.
Lets take the Nissan 3.5L DOHC V6, currently making 300hp in the 350Z. Now take a 3.4 DOHC at 210hp. Add 7 PSI. What car will have more power? Why? They're practically the same displacement.
thanks
KennyC
MAR 15, 11:21 AM
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:
Oreif, true, they're not "built" up. A lot of the cars that are posted about frequently are gm "performance" engines which are 'built up' by GM. GM states these engines should get your car into low 12second territory. Its surprising that they lose over 100hp to the wheels from what GM rates them at. That is all I'm saying. That is an issue which I feel should be addressed with his setups.
Perhaps I am mis-reading this.... but the loss of power through the driveline... umm.... last I knew archie wasn't making the transmissions, etc, just the adaptor plates and hardware to make the pieces bolt together.... it's still up to the owner to select the components. Nothing to be addressed within the kit about that one....
Besides, I once again refer to old school technology and automotive history.... Think back to the 1970s when the rating proceedure for factory drivetrains was altered by the gov't and they went from crank HP to rear wheel HP.... the same power plants were seeing HUGE drops in rating, alot of 350-4bbl v8s in the chevys fell all the way to 150-175hp rating that first year....
I think I remember hearing that nowadays they allow manufacturers to claim crank HP again, *might* have something to do with it... an engine sold as 355HP is advertising the power of the engine, raw figures, not a projected net which varies form vehicle to vehicle its used in based on a huge number of factors.....
[This message has been edited by KennyC (edited 03-15-2008).]
I wasn't trying to say you're a bad person or that I "e-hate" you or your lack in the e-rep yatta yatta yatta, just kinda getting some laughs at the amount of sincerity being poured into this thread.