How much will it take for people to understand the meaning of Islam? (Page 13/14)
dennis_6 NOV 25, 06:33 AM
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors
From the cow chapter.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 11-25-2003).]

DRH NOV 25, 07:49 AM
Sounds like rules of war to me... including showing mercy if the enemy surrenders. Are the Geneva Convention rules evil also?

What's your point?

Songman NOV 25, 09:58 AM
 
quote
Originally posted by DRH:

Sounds like rules of war to me... including showing mercy if the enemy surrenders. Are the Geneva Convention rules evil also?

What's your point?

I can't say what Dennis' point is, but from only from what I am reading my guess is that his point is that Muslims are supposed to kill those that do not share their religion...

I am not saying I agree or disagree since I don't know anything about the context of where his posts come from.

As for your comparison, I would say that the Geneva Convention is not supposed to be a religious text. I would think that is the difference.

Mach10 NOV 25, 02:58 PM
Holy crap, dude. Did you even READ those? Or did you just do a binary word-search?

Those passages are describing rules of engagement for an invading army of infidels, and saying that it's perfectly OK to defend yourselves, to the death if necessary.

The first passage you highlight says that you are allowed to fight them until they either a) surrender, b) convert, or c) run away. If they run away, you aren't allowed to chase them, but if they come back, you are free to kill them as needed.

You utter moron. ALL of those passages are describing how you should deal with people that are persecuting you. What it does NOT condone is unprovoked attacks in someone else's land. If they stay on their side of the fence Allah will deal with them on his own. It's only when they start torching your mosques/people that the Muslim is free to defend himself.


there should be no hostility except against the oppressors

Dumbass.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-25-2003).]

CaddyRob NOV 25, 04:02 PM
Anyone can Pick and Choose portions of a book to make it look bad...

You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
9 " 'I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers, and I will keep my covenant with you.

hmmm If I didnt know better I would say that that is a God telling his people to Go Kill people and he will reward them for there efforts..

On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn-both men and animals-and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.

Oh, here is a God doing it all himself.. Good Ol' Murder, but then he is the LORD...

The LORD answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together.

Heres some Genocide, of course God is going with them in this case.. so that makes it okay right?

It would seem that even The good ol' Book of Jesus Christ is full of terrible acts.. Oh yea.. The Bible is Full of stuff like this.. a good 1/6 of the book is about people killing people to get some land to call there own, but its okay. God Told them to do it.. Thats the North American Judeo-Christian God that told them to do it..

Later;
Gridlock NOV 25, 04:05 PM
Maybe Dennis feels the Koran should have a few adfditional passages, such as

" Christianity has it right, if you are presented with the option, jump ship from Allah and join the flock of white folk"

"Its not ok to kill white folk, but my god they can come in and convert your sorry ass"

"I made up this bible to divert you"

"Love is a warm hug from Jesus"

Come on man. Really. You are trying to make a group of people that represent what 1/5 of the planets population out as evil?

Get a Life.

Toddster NOV 25, 04:16 PM
 
quote
Originally posted by trailboss:

Constantine was baptized on his deathbed, he knew that he would be shedding blood and wanted to be baptized at the end of his life.
baptism makes one a Christian about as much as a bath does.

An excellent book on the life of Constantine
titled "Constantine the great" by Michael Grant refutes what you say.

Matthew 7:17
states that a rotten tree bears rotten fruit.
Constantine bore rotten fruit.
I'll admit that he was sympathetic to Christians, however he didn't manifest christlikeness in his life.

"Constantine could hardly be considered much of a Christian. As an example, he never relinguished his title Pontifex Maximus. This was the title given to him as the head of the state pagan cult, which was either Mithraism or Sol Invictus, two distinct but similar religions. In addition, the coinage of his reign continued to depict the Sun God [Sol Invictus]. Finally, it is reported that he personally murdured one of his own sons, had his second wife drowned, had his nephew and brother-in-law killed after he had guaranteed safe passage, etc. However, during all of this he sponsored Christianity because it had been useful to him in winnig a decisive battle."
[The Christian Conspiracy, p. 58, Dr. L.D. Moore]


Back to the topic at hand..

[This message has been edited by trailboss (edited 11-22-2003).]


LOVE the picture trail!

Anyway, I thought I'd throw my .02 cents in. Constantine was a pragmatist. He saw the winds of change and decided upon the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" philosophy of government. To try to maintain control of the empire as it disintegrated before his feet he decided to take the two hundred plus books of the Bible and do a little judicial editing. Hence the Old Testiment, as we know it today, came into being.

It was a desparate plan that failed. The Empire fell as all societies made of unwilling participants do.

Christianity was a message of freedom ironically. Freedom from tyranny, pain, suffering, and so on. It was a message of purpose and hope. Constatine tried to pervert into a set of laws to maintain control but became a victim of his own plan.

dennis_6 NOV 26, 06:37 AM
Go find in the Bible where Jesus told people to kill. Some of you need to remove the PC liberal blinders. I was challenged to find where the Koran said to kill, I found it.

Yes it was dealing with war, war against unbelivers. Which is instructed in the Koran.

lurker NOV 26, 08:16 AM
"let he who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one", or words to that effect? ive always taken this to mean that jesus expected to do some butt-kicking before the weather turned cold in the fall. but then the plan changed.
trailboss NOV 26, 10:24 AM
 
quote
Originally posted by lurker:

"let he who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one", or words to that effect? ive always taken this to mean that jesus expected to do some butt-kicking before the weather turned cold in the fall. but then the plan changed.


That quote wasn't inciting anyone to war, the context was, that a Christian has a right to defend themselves.