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| Levi's sports white knots in support of gay marriage (Page 11/31) |
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Patrick's Dad
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MAY 30, 09:25 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by fierobear:
OK, you have a point about slavery. Perhaps there ISN'T an absolute morality, but that would apply to human morality as well. |
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No, bear, he does not have a point about slavery. Slavery existed in the Roman empire, but Christians did not see slaves the way the Romans did.
To the Roman, a Slave was property, not considered fully human (kinda like preborn babies, these days), and, therefore, not entitled the rights of the citizenry. They were functionally illiterate (by design, most slaves were purposefully not educated, or educated only as their desired usefulness might call for.
Paul's letter to Philemon is a treatise to a brother in Christ to accept Onesimus, a slave, back, and, though a servant, to treat him as fellow brother in Christ. In fact, Paul tells Philemon (1:8 - 11), "So, although I have quite a lot of confidence in Christ and could command you to do what is proper, I would rather appeal to you on the basis of love – I, Paul, an old man and even now a prisoner for the sake of Christ Jesus I am appealing to you concerning my child, whose spiritual father I have become during my imprisonment, that is, Onesimus, who was formerly useless to you, but is now useful to you and me."
Yes, Christianity has been used to promote and/or justify slavery, particularly because there are passages that address how to treat slaves and, if you are a slave/servant, how to honor God as one. These addressed circumstances that the emerging Church found in its present. In fact, it is the Church that was the foundation of the Abolitionist movement in the US, following the Second Great Awakening. There is a difference between using the Bible to justify what what you want, and a genuine move of the Spirit, in which God guides the Church Body to conform to His standard.
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fierobear
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MAY 30, 11:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:
No, bear, he does not have a point about slavery. Slavery existed in the Roman empire, but Christians did not see slaves the way the Romans did. |
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The reason I say that is that I seem to recall in the Old Testament that slavery seemed to be accepted. Nope, I can't quote you chapter and verse, I'm just going by memory and the impression with which I was left.
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ray b
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MAY 31, 12:25 AM
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BobadooFunk
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MAY 31, 02:10 AM
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so...... Levis and white knots....
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WhiteDevil88
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MAY 31, 04:04 AM
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I know, what's up with that? ------------------
stimpy
| quote | Originally posted by fierobear:
Here's a hint for you...don't believe everything you THINK. |
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Cliff Pennock
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MAY 31, 04:53 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by frontal lobe:
But just because 2 homosexuals want to live together and maybe they make a life long commitment, they don't get to toss out THOUSANDS OF YEARS of a definition to fit what they are doing. |
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The church did. When they monopolized the word. Why aren't gays allowed to do the same?
(Yes, I obviously didn't read past page one since I'm sure from page 2 onwards it's the same "God hates Gays" drivel))
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blackrams
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MAY 31, 07:46 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:
(Yes, I obviously didn't read past page one since I'm sure from page 2 onwards it's the same "God hates Gays" drivel)) |
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 [This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-31-2009).]
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Patrick's Dad
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MAY 31, 08:19 AM
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So, you use a partisan, straw man "commercial" as proof? C'mon ray, you've posted some off the wall stuff, but you can do better than that.
Cliff, when Judaism was in its infancy, monogamy was peculiar. The notion that one man and one woman should spend their lives together was antithetical to the surrounding cultures. Even today, the Koran allows up to four wives.
If you take religion out of it, then we are nothing more than rutting animals who use utensils to eat. In thousands of years of "societal evolution," you have to assume that we've tried everything, including homosexuals as the center of the family unit. Therefore, we can safely assume (due to the human propensity to experiment with what works) that this "social evolution" has weeded out the weak lings, i.e, all but a monogamous heterosexual foundation for creating and raising a family.
I also have to keep pointing out that no book in the history of humanity has the broad and deep proofs of its existence and accuracy of translation over the centuries than the Bible. Not Homer, not Plato, not Beowulf (author unknown). We have fragments dating to within eighty years of Christ's death and resurrection, and completes from the late second century. They all jibe, with minor grammatical (as opposed to substantial or factual) errors. Despite human intervention over the last two millenia, it survives intact. Therefore, I have only two choices: to listen to its Word says or not. The Word itself cannot be denied, no matter how much rayb says otherwise.
| quote | | (Yes, I obviously didn't read past page one since I'm sure from page 2 onwards it's the same "God hates Gays" drivel)) |
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And it's actually been civil; just the way that you have asked. I think that, despite the trolls that appear here every now and again, we have a good core who, though they may not agree, respect the "living room" that you have provided us and that we may not thank you enough for.
BTW, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God hates gays. He hates the activity and the fact that a human that He has created (fearfully and wonderfully - PSALM 139) can be overtaken by the behavior. He wants that all would join Him in Glory (1 Tim 2:4), but that is our choice (John 3:16).
EDIT - Embellishment[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 05-31-2009).]
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Patrick's Dad
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MAY 31, 09:51 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by fierobear:
The reason I say that is that I seem to recall in the Old Testament that slavery seemed to be accepted. Nope, I can't quote you chapter and verse, I'm just going by memory and the impression with which I was left.
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Actually, slavery was prevalent when these books were written, and the Hebrews themselves had just "walked away" from 400 years of it. The Levitical laws elevated the stature of slaves, and commanded that slaves should be set free in the Jubilee year (every seventh, or Sabbath year) and their debts forgiven. Again, unheard of among the societies that surrounded the fledgling nation.
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fierobear
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MAY 31, 10:49 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Patrick's Dad:
Actually, slavery was prevalent when these books were written, and the Hebrews themselves had just "walked away" from 400 years of it. The Levitical laws elevated the stature of slaves, and commanded that slaves should be set free in the Jubilee year (every seventh, or Sabbath year) and their debts forgiven. Again, unheard of among the societies that surrounded the fledgling nation. |
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It's entirely true that Judaism/Christianity brought a change in attitude, but it seems to remain that there wasn't a condemnation or stand against slavery in total. It seems that slavery is still accepted. I don't know of any passage that says "slavery is wrong, don't do it", like many other commandments made of us.
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