PFF - Pennock's Fiero Forum, PDA Edition

Landscaper Under Fire for Refusing to Work for Gays (Page 11/65)

Formula88

NOV 12, 12:45 PM

quote

Originally posted by Falcon4:

Here's the big problem. You talk with people all the time. You assume everyone's, well... straight, or you just don't care. You could pass a hundred gay guys (hell, or girls for that matter) and it wouldn't occur to you, and you wouldn't care either. You could talk with them, do business with them as a cashier at a store or restaurant, pick up something they dropped on the street, so on and so forth, and never know nor care.

Here's a newsflash for you. You DO pass gay men and women every day, do business with them, talk to the, etc. and it never occurs to you. You assume all gays act outrageously "gay" but those are only the ones you notice.

quote

Originally posted by Falcon4:

Maybe if gay people wouldn't act so goddamn.. gay... everywhere they go, they wouldn't be so "hated" (which they really aren't, just avoided).

How would you react if someone told you that you to act a certain way to avoid their hatred and persecution?
I'm betting you'd tell them to screw off.

84Bill

NOV 12, 12:46 PM

quote

Originally posted by jstricker:
It's people like 84Bill that is so adamant about his individual rights but I'm not allowed to have mine. I see it over and over and nearly ALWAYS from the same people that protest about violation of THEIR rights.

John Stricker

John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..

As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!!
Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task for your INTOLORANCE and HATEFULNESS .

Refuse the job but DO NOT state that the reason for refusal is based on YOUR hate of another person based on XXX which are personal reasons. THAT is not serving the public in good faith and you should be BARRED from ever serving the public because you are incapable of doing it without treating all people (the public) equally.... Hell.. you arent even good at being American in my eyes let alone capable of operating a public business with that shitty attitude of yours. And I don't give a rats ass about "religious values" because the jack bags in Salem had the same idea and it killed 24 innocent people!

I can assure you Jonh.. I will NEVER do business with you because I don't like Communists and people who hate.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

Nurb432

NOV 12, 12:57 PM

quote

Originally posted by 84Bill:

John.. as a PUBLIC ENTITY (business owner / person doing business with the public) you CAN NOT discriminate! Your "individual rights" DO NOT COUNT as an employer and or service provider..

As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!!
Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task on your INTOLORONT HATEFUL ass.

*snip*

But isnt part of our freedom ( here in the US at least ) to publiclly express our views? Even if they offend others? ( which no matter what we say, it will offend SOMEONE )

Edit: HEY! my avatar works!

[This message has been edited by Nurb432 (edited 11-12-2006).]

edhering

NOV 12, 01:07 PM

quote

Originally posted by cliffw:

I believe you are wrong here. Sexual discrimination has only served to protect against gender discrimination.

You may be right, although I think in some areas the law has been extended to cover "sexual orientation" as well as "gender".

Anyway, the legal theory I mentioned above, regarding race, also applies to sex (what has come to be called, incorrectly, "gender").

Ed

jstricker

NOV 12, 01:24 PM

quote

Bill, you really need to quit calling things something they are not.

quote

Under the ADA, public entity means any state or local government; any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentalities of a state or local government; and the National Railroad Passenger Corporation and any commuter authority.

SEC. 201. DEFINITION.
As used in this title:

(1) Public entity.--The term "public entity" means--

(A) any State or local government;
(B) any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or States or local government; and
(C) the National Railroad Passenger Corporation, and any commuter authority (as defined in section 103(8) of the Rail Passenger Service Act).

Because you do business with the public does not make you a public entity. Learn the difference and get over it. Shouting at the top of your lungs over and over that anyone that does business with the public is a public entity doesn't make it a fact, it only makes you wrong over and over again in a very loud voice. I am a sole proprietorship, private business. I reserve the right to do business with whoever I want to do business with. You don't like it? Tough. Don't do business with me then.

quote

Originally posted by 84Bill:
As a private person you can HATE anyone you like.. I don't care!!!
Just keep it to your hate filled self and there wont be a problem.. Make your hate public, discriminate OPENLY IN PUBLIC and I will call you to task for your INTOLORANCE and HATEFULNESS .

Because your world is either HATE/NOT HATE doesn't mean mine is. Don't impose your standards on me. I don't hate anyone, gay or straight, I just want to be LEFT OUT OF IT and we'll get along fine. To you, that means I hate. Who says? You? Again, tough. Get over it.

quote

Originally posted by 84Bill:
Refuse the job but DO NOT state that the reason for refusal is based on YOUR hate of another person based on XXX which are personal reasons. THAT is not serving the public in good faith and you should be BARRED from ever serving the public because you are incapable of doing it without treating all people (the public) equally.... Hell.. you arent even good at being American in my eyes let alone capable of operating a public business with that shitty attitude of yours. And I don't give a rats ass about "religious values" because the jack bags in Salem had the same idea and it killed 24 innocent people!

Oh, I'm so crushed. Now if you had your way my right to serve in public office would be stripped from me. I'm a Communist.

But I'd be OK if I just refused to do the job and lied about the reasons for not doing it. Oh brother.

What a hypocrite you are, Bill.

quote

Originally posted by 84Bill:
I can assure you Jonh.. I will NEVER do business with you because I don't like Communists and people who hate.

Gee, I'm heartbroken that you won't do business with me. Guess what, I'm glad you have the right to make that choice. That's all I'm asking for as well. Why should you have the choice and not me?

John Stricker

isthiswhereiputausername?

NOV 12, 01:30 PM

quote

Geez Bill.. get off your rainbow bandwagon and read what you are saying! As a business owner in these semi free countries (reason I say semi free is because all the rights once put in places decades ago are being pulled away by crying whining people like you) we do haave the rights to choose who we work with.

John as a business owner DOES have the right to choose who he deals with. Dont like it? Dont waste his time or yours trying to soliciate services from him.

[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 11-12-2006).]

isthiswhereiputausername?

NOV 12, 01:33 PM

quote

Originally posted by jstricker:

Gee, I'm heartbroken that you won't do business with me. Guess what, I'm glad you have the right to make that choice. That's all I'm asking for as well. Why should you have the choice and not me?

John Stricker

John,

Never Argue With An Idiot. They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience

Formula88

NOV 12, 02:16 PM

quote

Originally posted by Nurb432:

But isnt part of our freedom ( here in the US at least ) to publiclly express our views? Even if they offend others? ( which no matter what we say, it will offend SOMEONE )

Well, there's a legal difference between expressing your views and discriminating against someone because of those views.

Example:
Expressing a vew: White man stands on the street corner and says, "I don't like blacks."
Discrimination: White man at the lunch counter, "We don't serve coloreds here. You'll have to leave."

The legal question is whether or not sexual orientation is protected by the same laws that protect people against racial discrimination.

http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/article_content/article13721.html
"Both federal and state laws prohibit businesses from denying public accommodation to citizens on the basis of race, color, religion or national original. The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

Race, color, religion, or national origin. Doesn't say anything about sexual orientation, so it would appear that is is legal to refuse service to someone based on their sexual orientation; however,

On the other hand, a California court decided that a restaurant owner could not refuse to seat a gay couple in a semi-private booth where its policy was to only seat two people of the opposite sex in such booths. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.

Now, that's in CA, so it may be different in other states, but the precident is set.

But here's a part that tends to address John's point of view:

Like many issues involving constitutional law, the law against discrimination in public accommodations is in a constant state of change. Some argue that anti-discrimination laws in matters of public accommodations create a conflict between the ideal of equality and individual rights. Does the guaranteed right to public access mean the business owner's private right to exclude is violated? For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations far outweighs the individual liberties involved.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-12-2006).]

84Bill

NOV 12, 02:22 PM

quote

Originally posted by jstricker:
What a hypocrite you are, Bill.
John Stricker

Show me where I am being a hypocrite with regard to HATING another person for their preference.

I hate what people DO but I don't hate the person. Big difference.

BTW John
You are entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to mine.. yours suck and mine dont.. thats the way I see it and I'm sure you see it the opposite so stop the petty grade school bullshit.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-12-2006).]

Nurb432

NOV 12, 02:25 PM

quote

Originally posted by jstricker:
*snip*

Because you do business with the public does not make you a public entity. Learn the difference and get over it. Shouting at the top of your lungs over and over that anyone that does business with the public is a public entity doesn't make it a fact, it only makes you wrong over and over again in a very loud voice. I am a sole proprietorship, private business. I reserve the right to do business with whoever I want to do business with. You don't like it? Tough. Don't do business with me then.

*snip*
John Stricker

You are of course right, but dont forget that if you do business directly with the government, or receive governmental funding then you also fall under diffrent rules.

To be able to have the 'right to refuse' you have to be 100% private.

I'm not sure about corporations, they may have different rules as well.