thanks a lot scott.Now i will forever relate this song to a stupid thread.
hehe GET OVER IT MYSELF

First of all spanky, housing is not affordable for working families or those that need them it is affordable for the "affluent".

This is from here http://www.nbc6.net/family/3317367/detail.html

"The Center for Housing Policy says home ownership rates for low- and moderate-income families with children have declined since the late 1970s, even though the overall rate of home ownership in the country has risen. It says a study suggests incomes for some working families can't keep up with soaring home prices. The center's research director says builders have tended to focus on putting up bigger homes geared toward more affluent buyers. "

Let me get this straight, I used beef, produce, and dairy costs as an example of out of control food prices. And every single one of those IS way above the historic average ,then you try to somehow make that look like a lie? No sirree, its the truth whether you like it or not, and I bet if you took an average of overall grocery products you would have a large increase, especially on those that you buy often like beef, produce, and dairy.

What do you know this is from the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57945-2004Apr30.html

"A trip to the grocery store is getting more expensive.
Prices have been rising sharply in recent months for all kinds of basics, including milk, meat, eggs, oil and produce, giving supermarket shoppers their first taste of serious food price inflation in years."

Whats your point? A price spike is still a price spike.

OK I'll concede that may be a questionable statement, but I will say that for ME and the AVERAGE american, income levels are lower than ever. And I think I'll take this little opportunity to point that out.

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_inequality_inequality
"The Economic Policy Institute and the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities recently published a joint report called Pulling Apart: A State-by-State Analysis of Income Trends (Bernstein et al. 2000), which showed that income inequality-the gap between those at the top, middle, and bottom of the income scale-has grown significantly throughout the past two decades and remains higher than at any other time in the post-war era. "

from http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/200402/200402_040_poverty.cfm

"In 1997, the top 20 percent owned over 84 percent of all wealth. In fact, the top 1 percent had more wealth than all people in the bottom 90 percent. In 1965, ceos made approximately 44 times the salary of the average factory worker. Today it is 500 times. If factory workers had received pay raises comparable to those of their ceos between 1980 and 1995, they would have earned $90,000 a year by 1995, and the minimum-wage worker would have earned $39,000 a year. "

Hmmmm? Lets see. So if the rate of inflation is 3% than that means I was living under the rate of inflation for 4 months before I got my raise. But lets explore that farther and ask the question what is the rate of inflation now with gas prices being the highest what EVER!

http://money.cnn.com/2004/04/13/pf/expert/ask_expert/

"NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The U.S. is supposed to be in a low-inflation environment, but my experience doesn't reflect that. Gas prices are high, home prices are out of sight, medical expenses are rising...I just don't see that inflation is all that low. What gives?

Is Inflation Making a Comeback?
Many goods are climbing in price, but the feds say inflation is in check (just 2.5% annually over the past 5 years and just 1.2% over the past year). Here's how much more (or less) we're paying for some selected items.

Item 5-Year Price Increase Average Annual Change
Gasoline 51% 8.5%
Eggs 43% 7.4%
Cable TV 41% 6.9%
Movie Ticket 29% 5.2%
Medical Care 23% 4.3%
Housing Costs 14.7% 2.8%
Chicken -1% -0.2%
Clothing -9% -1.7%
Coffee -16% -3.6%


Sources: BLS, Motion Picture Association of America, and Associated Press

There does seem to be a bit of a disconnect here. Over the past year we've had Fed chairman Alan Greenspan and other Fed governors warning about the danger of falling prices -- deflation -- while many of us feel that when it comes to buying a house, filling our gas tanks and buying other necessities that rising prices -- inflation -- is the real problem.

So how does one square the Bureau of Labor Statistics' official inflation statistic, which show inflation as low and under control, with the feeling on the part of many Americas that the prices they pay in the real world are rising at an accelerating pace?

To get data for those categories, BLS collects prices for goods and services from some 23,000 companies as well as 50,000 landlords and tenants (to calculate rents, which are used for shelter costs) in 87 urban areas. That leaves a lot of room for divergence in the case of individual's experience, not to mention variation from city to city and region to region.

For example, for the year ended in February, the most common index of inflation -- the CPI for urban consumers -- rose 1.7 percent. But if you exclude the volatile food and energy components, which economists often do to arrive at "core" inflation, that rate of increase drops to 1.2 percent. The more of your budget that's devoted to these two items, the higher inflation will seem to you."

Really? Care to back that up with facts? I work at one of New Englands TOP hospitals that provides services that in some cases NO ONE in the world can provide. So obviously if the bed count is down here as well, its not because of bad management, but in reality an industry wide problem related to the state of the economy in general.

I used sprained ankle and cough as examples of less serious reasons to visit the hospital but still serious nonetheless.

from http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2003-09-16-nonprofits2_x.htm

"WASHINGTON — Soaring demand and shrinking budgets are putting intense stress on the nation's vast non-profit sector — an intricate web of hospitals, schools, social service agencies, museums and other organizations that make up about 6% of the economy.
Many of the problems stem directly from the recession, which forced millions of unemployed and uninsured to turn to charity. But the situation could get worse even if the economic rebound continues. "

Go and read on if you like.

Wow, what a shock, name calling from a supposed open minded liberal. Color me surprised (not).

So only "working class families" need homes, huh?

Care to put a few things in context? From your link:

"It says a study suggests incomes for some working families can't keep up with soaring home prices. The center's research director says builders have tended to focus on putting up bigger homes geared toward more affluent buyers. "

Hey, another newsflash for you, not EVERY working family can or ever will be able to afford their own home. That has always been the case and, most likely, always will be. Note the report says "SOME WORKING FAMILIES CAN'T KEEP UP.........." Wow, what a shock.

Now tell me how what you quoted as "proof" backs up your comment of "has soared to the point where people are making up to 50% more than they paid 4 years ago on home sales". Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say with that comment.

Also from the link "In 1978, the median price for a new home was slightly less than $56,000. In 2001, the median price was $175,000. " and "builders have tended to focus on putting up bigger homes geared toward more affluent buyers. " First off, any manufacturer, if they want to stay in business, builds what is selling and they can make the most money on. Right now, High End houses sell. That pushes up the MEDIAN price even more than normal inflation. It doesn't mean that there aren't inexpensive homes for sale or even new ones being built. Neighbor here just built a really nice, new home for $118K, land included. Want a starter home for $50K or less, come take a Look.

Of course, they wouldn't be in the prime real estate locations like back east, so obviously they don't count, right? If it's not in your world, it doesn't exist.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let me get this straight, I used beef, produce, and dairy costs as an example of out of control food prices. And every single one of those IS way above the historic average ,then you try to somehow make that look like a lie? No sirree, its the truth whether you like it or not, and I bet if you took an average of overall grocery products you would have a large increase, especially on those that you buy often like beef, produce, and dairy.

Here's some facts for you. In '97, the US Consumer spent $715 BILLION for food and another $95 BILLION for alcoholic beverages. Over 13% of what was spent on food was spent on booze. Out of the $715 billion, 45% was spent on meals away from home and snacks. Want to save some money? Cut out the booze and eat at home once in a while.

From the report "Although food spending has increased considerably over the years, the increase has not matched the gain in disposable income. As a result, the percentage of
income spent for food has declined. Food expenditures by families and individuals were 13.8 percent of disposable personal income in 1970, compared with 13.4 percent in 1980 and 10.7 percent in 1997 (fig. 29, table 99). The decline is the direct result of the income-inelastic nature of the aggregate demand for food: as income rises, the proportion spent for
food declines."

Read that carefully. You can't dispute the facts. As income rises faster than food prices, the demand for food is relatively inelastic so the % spent on food goes down. It's not that hard to figure out if you think about it.

From your post, trying to validate your feelings:

Item 5-Year Price Increase Average Annual Change
Gasoline 51% 8.5%
Eggs 43% 7.4%
Cable TV 41% 6.9%
Movie Ticket 29% 5.2%
Medical Care 23% 4.3%
Housing Costs 14.7% 2.8%
Chicken -1% -0.2%
Clothing -9% -1.7%
Coffee -16% -3.6%

Now this is getting ridiculous. You're honestly trying to say that you're including cable TV and movie tickets as things that are necessities of life? If they are, then we have truly become a spoiled nation. Your quoted table even shows housing costs rising at an inflation rate of less than 3%. Clothing declined in price.

In your hospital example, you didn't even begin to address my points (not that I'm surprised). I did back it up with facts, an example at my local hospital and one I've seen repeated over and over again. You've seen it too, if you'll take off the "it's the government's (neo-con/Bush anyway) fault" blinders.

I'll make you even madder. Do you know what REALLY is wrecking the health care system? The same thing that's screwing up our federal Govt. fiscal policy. We don't actually, physically, spend the money.

When we have our taxes witheld, we never see that money. IF for one year, we had to actually WRITE the government back a check every pay period for all that's witheld now, there would be a tax revolt almost immediately because NOW we'd have OUR money and have to give it to THEM instead of it just not being there.

The same is true for health care. We don't shop wisely for health care as a society. We just go to the doctor or the emergency room and for the majority of people in the US, we only worry about what WE have to pay, we never really give any thought to how much it actually COSTS in total, including what the insurance companies pay out. If we had to pay for our own health care costs and then were reimbursed, we'd shop a hell of a lot more wisely for it, just like you do for hamburger and milk now.

I did. Did you? Your article is dated September of last year. Things have turned around quite a bit since then, whether you care to admit it or not doesn't change the facts. I love your quote you pulled. "Many of the problems stem directly from the recession....................But the situation could get worse even if the economic rebound continues."

Interesting, kind of like the weatherman. It could rain, or not. We'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out. Back to you, Conn..........

John

I am doing it now. Sure I make much more than I did 4 years ago, but the extra money is all going into savings, private mutual fund, and 401k. I looked at my budget last night. I'm pretty anal about it and keep a rough budget on my computer on an excel spreadsheet. I do it monthly and have the old ones in an archive file. Before I did that I would spend more than I needed to. It helps to look at it on paper, at least it keeps me in line.

I'm single (we were talking about $18/hour for a single person origianlly...namely, 84Bill)
Have 3 fieros, 1 van
Insurance on all vehicles
My food bill
2 dogs (one is a St. Bernard, not a small food bill for him), their yearly vet visits (approx $150 each)
Utilities, Satellite
Things like clothes, shoes,
Gas for the vehicles
House payment
Medical bills
blah, blah, blah, so on

If I was back to $36000/year, based on my current budget I could still pay my bills, keep contributing to my 401k (6% of my salary), wouldn't be contributing to my private mutual fund though..oh well, and would STILL have roughly $300 per month left over for my savings account. As a single person, I sure as hell can make $36000/year work TODAY, and any other single person could do the same. Some people need to learn how to do a budget, that's B U D G E T, because any single person who can't make that work is likely a fool with their money...and don't give me this crap about a family of 5 because we are talking about a single person here...that was the original argument.

What's this enjoying spoils of war crap? I was doing fine from the moment I got out into the real world back in 1994 (graduated HS and went off to college, on my own coin I'll add). I have always taken responsibility for my situation and done something about it when I didn't like it. Typical liberal remark, why am I surprised?

Apparently, some Liberals won't be happy unless someone pays them $100,000+ yearly for a mindless job anyone can do. That appears to be the reality of it. Even if the job pays $36000/year they'll ***** . There are tons of people who would like to have a job paying that much. Of course they're the same ones who understand they have to EARN it.

I spent from 1994 to 2000 working for crap and living broke day to day, but I was working for something better. I would do it all over again if I had to because I know the rewards. Attitude is everything and some people's just stink

Sure, excellent points, keeping a budget is a great idea but it doesn't help at all when you don't have a job.

Hey, Bill are you budgeting your unemployment check wisely for the future?

This thread is becoming a lecture and does nothing to help or encourage anyone in hard times. I couldn't believe someone would think an $18 job could support $1650mo rent.

We know Bill is out of a job, if he wants to take that out on the current administration so be it. It's his opinion. I would be too when you have a President who visits to the treasury when they are printing his child tax credit checks and jokingly puts one in his pocket then later visits employees of a defense contractor to talk about jobs and the economy.

I can understand that. It's the "doing nothing when you're perfectly capable" part that gets me going, along with the finger pointing. What outcome does that give?...nothing. People like this can gripe and blame all day but in the end they won't better themselves one bit. I would be pissed if my field went overseas leaving me jobless....BUT, I would be man enough to take charge of my life and do something about it...not point fingers and whine.

The $100,000/year statement was a bit of an exageration. The point was that no matter what the salary, someone will come on here and try to make it look like you can't live on it...just like the $36000/year story above which is total crap as I've shown.

And the $1650/month rent? That's an outrageous figure that is now being used to make $36000/year look like peanuts. At first it was just used in an example, but we all know a single person could get a place much cheaper. I don't know anyone who pays rent like that on even twice that salary. What the heck is being rented there??? A single person doesn't need a place that big. Places can be had much much cheaper

I'm proud to be a hard working American, and when I see someone with this attitude I'm going to raise hell....and of course that makes me the bad guy in his eyes...the "screwer" as I've been called. It's an attitude like this which will send this place into the pits.

I thought you meant a family living on that salary. I DO live on a salary just above that and I provide for three, but like I said before I barely squeek by. And thats not because as jstricker put it I probably eat out a lot and buy a lot of alcohol.

I am not sure where all this liberal name calling came from. I never once mentioned welfare, civil rights, or anything remotely related to political standing. I merely said that its nearly impossible to get by on $18 an hour compared to 4 years ago. And I still bring to question how its possible for you to come out with the same numbers when obviously the cost of living has risen over the past 4 years.

I mentioned war spoils as reference to the minute economic recovery our country is experiencing due to our situation in Iraq. Yes I MEAN war spoils because for the most part our own companies are in Iraq making untold amounts of money. And lets not forget the industries that do well during war because of federal spending. I believe that is the reason we are seeing the recovery if thats what you want to call it. I am not saying that the economy isn't doing better than it was a few months ago, but that doesn't mean much of anything considering we are still living under an economy thats worse than the day Bush took office.

If I would believe everything that the US government tells me like Jstricker I would think that Gasoline is a bargain and $4 per pound of ground meat is a super deal.

Last thing for Jstricker: One of my good friends bought a house in crappy town for $100K 4 years ago and sold it for $140K just 3-4 months ago. That is typical of whats going on around here, and don't try to tell me that low interest rates make it just as easy to buy a house when the home prices are high as when interest rates are high and home prices are low. No matter how you do the math, at least 4 years ago and before that it was easier to buy a home (IN THIS AREA) than it is today even with a 4.25% mortgage.

I know the houses I saw 4 years ago in my price range compared to what I am looking at today, and its night and day my friend. Now maybe thats not everywhere like you are claiming, but then why is it that I keep seeing all these reports on skyrocketing housing costs? Sure we also see the propoganda about how right now is a good time to buy, but how could that be true if today real estate is a SELLERS market. How is that a good time to BUY if its a SELLERS market? Thats an oxymoron, it isn't a good time to buy but the government wants people to keep spending to help the recovery, some people like yourself actually BELIEVE the bullshit, but I see the reality not the press reports.

The enemies are ignorance and apathy.