Electrical Poohbahs -- Please Pontificate (Page 1/2)
Notorio FEB 17, 12:03 AM
My daughter and son-in-law recently bought a largely unimproved ranch in the area to stand up an Equine Therapy for women veterans and first responders. I was out there today and looked inside the main service panel at the road and noticed the contractor who did the original electrical pulled two 120 v mains and a ground to the box at the well station, about 600 feet away. In other words, he did NOT also pull a neutral. When their builder was out at the property today I asked him if it would be possible to pull the Ground back to the street and use that to pull a new Neutral wire back through the conduit. He said no, and that they would have to pull ALL the wires out, hopefully without damaging them, and then pull them PLUS the new neutral back. The needle on my BS meter started to climb. The conduit is about 2" plastic pipe so it seems like there should be plenty of room.

Any thoughts on this situation? (BTW, I was stunned when I went to Home Depot to buy a small roll of 12 gauge ground wire for $60! I gather the neutral wire is going to run into the many-thousands category )
olejoedad FEB 17, 09:28 AM
Check your local codes.

Neutral and ground both go to ground, is the ground wire required by code.

Pulling 600 feet in a conduit with wire in it is iffy at best, as the wires usually twist during pulling and may be bundled with tape at intervals.

Listen to the contractor - he does this for a living....
Jake_Dragon FEB 17, 05:47 PM

quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
Listen to the contractor - he does this for a living....



I agree, liability reasons. They would have no idea what shape the wires are in and if they nick one it could cause a fire.
maryjane FEB 17, 07:46 PM
Why do you want a neutral?

It is not at all unusual, out in the county, for a 240v water well to only have 2 hots and a Ground. There is no requirement for the well to have a neutral. The two 120v lines cancel each other out so there's nothing to return out a neutral.

The well at my old place was the same way and I had to run a neutral via 12/2 with ground to the well pedestal in order to mount a120v outlet to plug in a heater in winter. It was only about 40' from the house tho.

Yes, ground and neutral can be (and probably are) bonded together at the "first means of disconnect) which is probably the main distribution, but if you are wanting to run a neutral to get a light or 120v outlet there for some other purpose and thinking about using the ground for a neutral........., you have to take in consideration keeping the load balanced between the two 120v lines going to the well. You might think, 'what's a few watts difference in the lines?" but on start, it can make a lot of difference, especially if the pump has a soft start circuit and cap.

It might be just a cheap if your proposed load is small, to just run direct burial 12/2 with ground from a dedicated 120v breaker in that dist panel..

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-17-2025).]

Notorio FEB 17, 08:11 PM

quote
Listen to the contractor - he does this for a living....



I have a serious problem with the whole 'professional contractor' idea, unfortunately. Years ago I bought a home with a professional kitchen remodel with pulled permits and city inspections, including electrical. On Day One moving in, I climbed a step ladder to the attic entrance and pushed up the access panel and immediately a few inches from my face saw the electricians work: two 120 lines joined together in a box with no cover and no wire nuts, with the wires literally sticking up outside the box about six inches, wires loosely wrapped with electrical tape. As I looked at all the wiring in the attic associated with the kitchen remodel it was obvious that the 'electrician' was a hack and that the City 'inspector' had signed off without consulting the attic. I've had several other 'professional contractor' fails that have left me quite jaded.


quote
Why do you want a neutral?



Looks like I forgot to mention that they are looking at building a house about 100-200 ft from the well so the idea is to pick up power from from that box for the house, which if I understand correctly needs to have a neutral. I've seen a suggestion that since neutral is tied to ground anyway, the house panel could tie the new buss to the grounding rod.


quote
Consult the local codes ...



I shall try to do so. Last time I tried that what I found was unintelligible.
maryjane FEB 17, 09:19 PM

quote
Looks like I forgot to mention that they are looking at building a house about 100-200 ft from the well so the idea is to pick up power from from that box for the house, which if I understand correctly needs to have a neutral. I've seen a suggestion that since neutral is tied to ground anyway, the house panel could tie the new buss to the grounding rod.



The house will absolutely need a neutral.
other than that, I can't see me pulling house current off anything but a meter loop and the house's own main dist panel
cliffw FEB 19, 04:48 PM

quote
Originally posted by Notorio:
I was out there today and looked inside the main service panel at the road and noticed the contractor who did the original electrical pulled two 120 v mains and a ground to the box at the well station, about 600 feet away. In other words, he did NOT also pull a neutral.

Any thoughts on this situation? (BTW, I was stunned when I went to Home Depot to buy a small roll of 12 gauge ground wire for $60! I gather the neutral wire is going to run into the many-thousands category )



Color me confused also.

I like to think outside the box, and am not an electrician. What is the difference between a ground and a neutral ? Can not the ground wire be branched off of to be a ground and a neutral ?

My questions are what is the difference between a ground and a neutral ? What gives a neutral it's abilities ? Why is it needed ?
cliffw FEB 19, 04:52 PM
Thinking about it, one needs a positive, neutral, and ground.

Can one take a 220v lead and branch it off into two 110v mains ?

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 02-19-2025).]

cliffw FEB 19, 04:57 PM

quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Can one take a 220v lead and branch it off into two 110v mains ?



Can one just add a short ground lead from the breaker box to a ground rod just out side where the neutral is needed and swap the long reach ground ground wire to a neutral ?
maryjane FEB 19, 05:54 PM

quote
Thinking about it, one needs a positive, neutral, and ground.

Can one take a 220v lead and branch it off into two 110v mains ?



It's alternating current, there's no such thing as a 'positive'.
There's also no such thing in 220v/240v household power as 'a (1) 220 lead'.
You have 2 lines, of 120v EACH coming in, along with 1 neutral. YOU, the homeowner or business owner supplies the ground. To get 240v,/220v for high voltage needs, you run 2 lines.. of 120/110v each to your appliance.