 
     |
| Helicopter/passenger plane collision. No survivors, 67 reported dead (Page 1/7) |
|
maryjane
|
JAN 30, 08:53 AM
|
|
Air traffic control can be heard warning the helo about the incoming (to airport) aircraft but no reply from the helicopter. A video shows the helicopter approaching the jet from the airplane's starboard side., (left in the video) and then the collision.......... and the jet drops straight down.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/01...ment-earthcam-digvid
The H-60 Blackhawk is reported to have been from B Company, 12th Aviation Battalion from Fort Belvoir.
|
|
|
blackrams
|
JAN 30, 09:06 AM
|
|
Have been watching all the news sources I can about this incident.
It appears to me that the Black Hawk pilots were seeing the other traffic that was taking off and didn't see the landing aircraft until it was too late.
That's an extremely busy airport. Way too much traffic to be safe. Was reported this morning that Congress (they report didn't say who) lobbied the FAA to increase the amount of traffic allowed by an additional 800 flights last year. Very congested airspace. Normal for areas like this the helicopters operate at different altitudes and restricted routes, commercial flights are normally at higher altitudes. I do have suspicions on what occurred but, will wait on the FAA and Army Flight Board investigations
Have never flown a helicopter into that airport but have had several sorties into Chicago, Kansas City, DFW, OKC, New Orleans and a few other large airports on many occasions during my military flying career. It was never a fun experience. Everyone's eyes needed to be looking for other traffic. Have experienced two close calls while still on the tarmac while following ground control instructions. Sometime remind me to tell you about the time in S. Korea a U2 and the UH-1 I was preparing to take off had a near miss. Yeah, we were still planted firmly on the ground.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-30-2025).]
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
JAN 30, 09:14 AM
|
|
(PAT 2-5 is the Blackhawk and CRJ is the passenger jet)
An air traffic controller said, “PAT 2-5 do you have the CRJ in sight?”
The controller then said, “PAT 2-5 pass behind the CRJ.”
Additional air traffic control audio shortly before the collision captures the helicopter pilot saying, “PAT 2-5 has aircraft in sight, request visual separation.”
Less than 13 seconds later, the audio then captured audible gasps, including a loud “oooh” in the background apparently from the tower, at the moment of the crash.
The tower then alerted another pilot of what has taken place.
“I don’t know if you caught earlier what happened, but there was a collision on the approach end of 3-3. We are going to be shutting down operations for the indefinite future if you want to go back to the gate. Highly suggest you guys coordinate with the company. Let me know what you want to do,” the controller says, referencing runway 33.
The audio also revealed that another pilot had seen the incident and confirmed with an air traffic controller.
Another pilot could be heard saying, “Yeah, we were on short final, and we saw flares from the opposite side of the Potomac.”
An approach controller later said, “Apparently both aircraft involved are in the river, a search and rescue will be ongoing.”[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-30-2025).]
|
|
|
|
blackrams
|
JAN 30, 12:13 PM
|
|
Lots of reporters offering up opinions, most don't seem to know squat about aviation. I do have a couple of ideas about what may have happened but, I'll hold back on advertising them. I just watched President Trump's press conference, a lot of things said that in my opinion showed a lack of what being in the cockpit requires. Many of the reporters asked some really unqualified/stupid questions.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-30-2025).]
|
|
|
Patrick
|
JAN 30, 01:35 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
That's an extremely busy airport. Way too much traffic to be safe.
|
|
It was reported that the Blackhawk helicopter involved was undergoing a "annual proficiency training flight". This may be another "unqualified/stupid question", but why is there a need for the military be running a training mission in the vicinity of such a busy commercial airport?
|
|
|
|
blackrams
|
JAN 30, 03:03 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
It was reported that the Blackhawk helicopter involved was undergoing a "annual proficiency training flight". This may be another "unqualified/stupid question", but why is there a need for the military be running a training mission in the vicinity of such a busy commercial airport? |
|
My understanding is the unit this Blackhawk was from was routinely tasked with transporting VIPs through, to or from this area to other destinations. Those missions go in both day and night and under IFR conditions if, they have at least 1/8 mile visibility with very strict altitude and route restrictions. This is after all, the Capitol City with a lot of No Fly Zones. Hope that answers your question.
At one point in my military career, I was assigned to such a unit for III Corps. Flew all kinds of VIPs. Pilots had to have very good reasons to cancel a mission so, practice or training in this particular area was not only required but mandated if the pilots were to ever fly the mission.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-30-2025).]
|
|
|
Patrick
|
JAN 30, 03:26 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
My understanding it the unit this Blackhawk was from was routinely tasked with transporting VIPs through, to or from this area to other destinations.
|
|
I can certainly understand the need to be transporting VIPs in this area, but my question is more about the need to be running training missions as well out of this very busy commercial airport. There very well may be valid reasons for doing so... but if not, this tragedy may initiate a re-evaluation of this practice.
|
|
|
|
blackrams
|
JAN 30, 03:44 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I can certainly understand the need to be transporting VIPs in this area, but my question is more about the need to be running training missions as well out of this very busy commercial airport. There very well may be valid reasons for doing so... but if not, this tragedy may initiate a re-evaluation of this practice. |
|
The unit must be able to transport those VIPs at any time, the commercial and private traffic at this airport rarely slows down. This is one of the busiest airports on this side of the planet, those VIPs don't want to hear they have to wait for better traffic conditions. If, the pilots had a choice, they might choose to fly under different rules but, they don't get to make the rules.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-30-2025).]
|
|
|
blackrams
|
JAN 30, 04:55 PM
|
|
This is copied and pasted from another forum I frequent. This is several hours old but my post reflects what was being questioned at the time. Things/information may have changed since then.
The question:
I know its just a partial audio but, unless that Blackhawk was flying in some mode that prevented it from having a "radar signature" this is just appalling and really shows a major degradation in our air traffic control personnel and processes.
Absolutely no way an aircraft is going to be allowed to fly in that Controlled Airspace without properly squawking the correct code and yes, a Blackhawk does present a decent radar image. If, in that airspace and unidentified aircraft was observed on radar, that aircraft would have activated the on-call alert squadron protecting DC and the Capitol.
The next question:
It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.
Personally, I think Newmax of full of crap. NVGs magnify ambient light, the darker the better. There's no way I believe this training mission was done under NVGs. This entire area has so much light pollution the pilot's vision would be shut down. I would be absolutely amazed if NVG was in use with so much light pollution in that area.
This airport is one of the busiest in the nation, very congested traffic with a huge amount of NO FLY restricted areas (The White House being just one of them.). All traffic unless specially approved must approach along the river or other designated routes. Absolutely no way I'm buying the NVG story. I was qualified for NVG as a mission pilot and if asked to do so in such an area would have refused to fly the mission, that's just stupid. But I'm quite certain no one would have asked.
I do have a few other thoughts about how this accident could have occurred but will withhold them for now. Just not enough information and facts available right now.
Reference this Blackhawk flight being on a training mission, it's hard to know what that was intended to be but let me offer one possibility, a new pilot comes the the unit, it would be normal for that pilot to undergo familiarization with flying into and out of the locations and routes normally associated with their mission before they are actually turned loose flying those missions. Or, it could be this training mission is an annual requalification requirement. When I flew the Z in S. Korea, to do so single pilot had similar requirements.
The training mission could have also been a IFR training mission where the "trainee" goes under the hood so he can only see his instrument panel and his navigation instruments. In that case, the "trainee" can't see squat outside the aircraft and would depend on the other sets of eyes to watch for traffic. Have flown IFR many times in real IFR conditions as a mission pilot. Not saying that's what was going on but, it's one possibility.
Another option. When flying in controlled airspace, (it was normal) to receive instructions about other aricraft within the airspace I was flying. That information was provided in this manner. Army 12345, you have traffic at your ten o'clock at 3000 ft. This way you knew where to look. I did not hear such a warning from ATC about where the commercial airliner was at. The commercial airliner would also receive similar information about the Blackhawk. The only thing I've heard up to this point was instructions for the Blackhawk to pass behind the airliner.
Well, if the Blackhawk pilots didn't know where to look, they may have mistaken the commercial airliner that was taking off as the one the ATC controller was telling them about. This is all supposition but, there's just not enough facts known at this time.
Rams
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
JAN 30, 05:38 PM
|
|
The Blackhawk WAS asked by ATC if he saw the airliner.
(I agree about Newsmax..clickbait morons most of the time)
It appears a combination of things contributed to the accident. The airliner would have a sharp course change to switch runways from 1 to 33.
I do not, understand the helo's question/statement "Request visual separation" in reference to ATC's ? about whether he saw the jet.
|
|
|
|