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| Airlines warn of problems with 5G, asking to halt rollout (Page 1/4) |
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JAN 18, 08:34 AM
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U.S. airline CEOs warn of 'catastrophic' disruption from 5G rollout
“To be blunt, the nation’s commerce will grind to a halt," the chief executives of major carriers warned in a letter.
The aviation industry faces “catastrophic” disruption from the rollout of a new 5G service this week, airline leaders have warned.
In a letter sent Monday to United States transportation and economic officials and obtained by NBC News, the CEOs of major carriers said that the launch could ground flights and leave "tens of thousands of Americans" stranded overseas.
The warning came ahead of Wednesday's rollout of the new C-Band 5G service from telecommunications giants AT&T and Verizon. It also comes as airlines continue to contend with the fallout from widespread flight cancellations fueled by the spread of the omicron variant of Covid-19 and a series of winter storms that caused travel chaos across the U.S.
The airlines warned that the 5G signals risked interfering with safety equipment pilots rely on to take off and land in inclement weather.
“Unless our major hubs are cleared to fly, the vast majority of the traveling and shipping public will essentially be grounded,” they said in the letter, which was signed by the chief executives of American Airlines, United Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines and Jet Blue, along with leaders of UPS and FedEx.
“Immediate intervention is needed to avoid significant operational disruption to air passengers, shippers, supply chain and delivery of needed medical supplies,” the letter said.
Without clearance, it added: "To be blunt, the nation's commerce will grind to a halt."
The letter was addressed to National Economic Council Director Brian Deese, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, Federal Aviation Administration Administrator Stephen Dickson and Federal Communications Commission Chairwoman Jessica Rosenworcel."
... more at link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/new...ut-verizon-rcna12525
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It seems like with that many important companies concerned, there must me something to it? (Im no expert by any means) but would rather keep shipping, commerce, and travel.
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blackrams
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JAN 18, 08:49 AM
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The issue is with modern aircraft's instrument landing systems pilots use. I can't speak to the inner workings of the on-board equipment on commercial jets but, this I know. When the first crash can be honestly blamed on 5G the finger pointing will be paramount. Hoping Hudini will come into this discussion.
Rams
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MidEngineManiac
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JAN 18, 08:53 AM
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Cant say I ever flaw anything that big or complex, and when I learned to drive tin cans GPS didnt even exist. Let alone being a safety requirement.
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theogre
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JAN 18, 02:28 PM
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"Air Co" want 5G banned in 2 miles minimum is likely 2 miles from Airport Property Lines...
Go to Google Earth and use Tools, Rulers, circles.
set Radius to Miles.
Then Draw a circle just at ends of runways and watch area they covers...
Try LaGuardia in NYC, Philly Airport, and more.
In philla reaches nearly to the sport complex doing this. If can find true property line may reach the complex.
LaGuardia ban covers a lot of Queens and reaches some of other burrows.
If applies to smaller and mil airports too.... this bans will put Big Holes in 5G coverage is many places.
I live w/in 2mi from a mil airport property line so can't use 5G for internet as main ISP or as backup to cable/fiber.
If from "center" of airport property barely outside of 2mi.
That ignoring ATT et al will never cover many places w/ 5G same as they did w/ 3G and LTE even in heavy populated areas.------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)
The Ogre's Fiero Cave
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blackrams
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JAN 18, 03:06 PM
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As I understand the issue, the problem only exists when the airspace is under IMC conditions and an "instrument" approach is required utilizing the radar altimeter.
These conditions are not always present but, most of the time (I believe) commercial aircraft still use the same approaches. I never flew with a radar altimeter so, I don't know but, I can see this being a major issue to airlines, passenger and cargo getting where it's supposed to go if, this isn't addressed the right way. I'm not for or against 5G but, I am for safe landings. ATT and Verizon both state it's safe, the airlines and cargo carriers aren't so sure. The FAA put out a NOTAM (Notice to Airmen) to not use radar altimeters at airports where 5G is a problem.
This will become a big deal if, 5G causes the crash of one aircraft is all I'm saying.
Rams
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82-T/A [At Work]
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JAN 18, 05:54 PM
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So... are you guys telling me that with 5G technology in development the past decade... the airline companies, and the manufacturers of all the equipment being used, only NOW have determined that 5G shares a frequency range with their hardware?
I know the US Government is totally inept, as are most governments, but please tell me that this is not news to the FCC, and that this was totally unexpected?
Because if this is a legitimate failure of the FCC, then the entire organization needs to be fired and started over.
They managed to handle the phase-out of analog cell phones, analog televisions, and even a transition to digital radio and everything else with some sense of organization. What went wrong here?
Or is it totally unrelated?
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blackrams
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JAN 18, 06:09 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
So... are you guys telling me that with 5G technology in development the past decade... the airline companies, and the manufacturers of all the equipment being used, only NOW have determined that 5G shares a frequency range with their hardware?
I know the US Government is totally inept, as are most governments, but please tell me that this is not news to the FCC, and that this was totally unexpected?
Because if this is a legitimate failure of the FCC, then the entire organization needs to be fired and started over.
They managed to handle the phase-out of analog cell phones, analog televisions, and even a transition to digital radio and everything else with some sense of organization. What went wrong here?
Or is it totally unrelated? |
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It appears the competing industries are attempting to use similar technology to one's benefit and the other's detriment. One interfering with the other. This may or may not be true but, the fact that ATT and Verizon are unwilling to hold off due to potential profits that "may" be a detriment to the safety of those flying isn't all that comforting. I've never flown an aircraft with a radar altimeter so I can't say one way or another. But, it doesn't surprise me this could be an overlooked danger.
Edited: Although, I do wonder about the airlines claim some. In all the years I flew, I used an altimeter to know height above ground level. But, I'm talking about helicopters. There is no doubt in my mind that a radar altimeter is more accurate but, landing during metrological conditions requiring an instrument approach is very doable but, I'm not and never have been a fixed wing/airline pilot. I believe where the danger lies is if the 5G signal interferes with the radar altimeter and causes it to give an inaccurate reading. That could cause hard landings with negative results.
Hudini, your input would be greatly appreciated.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-18-2022).]
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Hudini
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JAN 18, 08:08 PM
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Sorry, just got off work. The airlines letter didn’t really say how 5G might affect aircraft. I am guessing it may cause false signals that set off the Ground Warning Proximity System. If the GPWS alert sounds “PULL UP! PULL UP!” and you are flying in the weather or at night you are required to execute a very aggressive pull away from the ground. Like full back stick and full thrust. If flown improperly it could itself cause an accident.
Other than that the RA is used for cat 2 and cat 3 approaches. A false RA could cause the aircraft to flare at the wrong altitude. Too high and you stall with the thrust at idle, too low and you might hit the runway with your nose wheel first.
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Hudini
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JAN 18, 08:15 PM
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The A320 in particular uses the RA to remove the stall protection below 100’ RA. Anyone remember the Paris airshow where the A320 crashed into the trees? The Air France Chief Pilot didn’t know this when he was demonstrating the anti-stall characteristics and flew below 100’ with the thrust in idle. The Alpha Floor protection was off, as designed, and by the time he figured it out it was too late.
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blackrams
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JAN 18, 08:16 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Hudini:
Sorry, just got off work. The airlines letter didn’t really say how 5G might affect aircraft. I am guessing it may cause false signals that set off the Ground Warning Proximity System. If the GPWS alert sounds “PULL UP! PULL UP!” and you are flying in the weather or at night you are required to execute a very aggressive pull away from the ground. Like full back stick and full thrust. If flown improperly it could itself cause an accident.
Other than that the RA is used for cat 2 and cat 3 approaches. A false RA could cause the aircraft to flare at the wrong altitude. Too high and you stall with the thrust at idle, too low and you might hit the runway with your nose wheel first. |
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Pretty much what I conjured up in my own mind. Thanks for responding.
We're gonna have to get you retired or re-order your priorities. 
Rams
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