The 52 United States of America. That's what the Loony Leftists are getting up to. ** (Page 1/2)
rinselberg DEC 09, 09:56 PM
** As regular readers of "rinselberg" are (likely) already aware, that was me pretending to be some other forum member.

But I hope that won't get in the way of what this is about.

It's just an invitation to look at 8 minutes (on YouTube) from MSNBC's "All In With Chris Hayes" that was just aired a little more than an hour ago.

Biden speechwriter (I think that's accurate) and Vanderbilt University historian Jon Meacham, Meagan Hatcher-Mays (advocates statehood for the District of Columbia) and MSNBC anchor Chris Hayes talk about the idea of incorporating the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico as States of the Union.

I think some of the comments were particularly interesting. James Madison, who thought that each state's representation in the Senate should be at least somewhat proportional to each state's population, instead of exactly two Senators for every state. Some of the very particular context about the incorporations of Hawaii and Alaska as States of the Union.

If you have 8 minutes and think it might float your boat, you're welcome to it. It just struck me as some small variety for the forum. I know that many here are already aware of this idea.

https://youtu.be/l69wckOEhZo

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-09-2020).]

williegoat DEC 09, 10:21 PM
Why in hell do we even have Puerto Rico? Why don't we just cut them loose?

(yes, I know the history. That doesn't change my questions)

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 12-09-2020).]

randye DEC 09, 10:52 PM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:

** As regular readers of "rinselberg" are (likely) already aware, ...





OPTIBOARD deja vu
rinselberg DEC 09, 11:11 PM

quote
Originally posted by randye:
OPTIBOARD deja vu


"Any attempt at humor or joking must be pre-approved by forum member randye."

I think you know what you can do with your "advice."

August 15, 2020. Remember that date. It's the best day in the Pennock's forum recent history.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-09-2020).]

Notorio DEC 10, 02:19 PM
OK, I watched the video while my glue was drying. I doubt MSNBC would have been so positive on the idea if they were looking at the prospect of admitting 4 new Republican Senators. But this is being packaged as a 'feel good, do the right thing' program and I have no doubt at all it will happen at some point. Now for the content:

Ms. Hatcher-Mays claimed that the Senate was created as it is 'for the benefit of landowning white men' and that we needed to 'fix the unbalance' by adding more Senators, using a graphic of California being 'underrepresented' because it has 40M people but only 2 Senators. Any school kid would immediately see how 'unfair' that is and jump on the bandwagon. She misses the point that our Constitutional Republic constructed the Senate to counterbalance the proportionally-represented House by giving small states an equal voice with large states. This was meant to be a safety valve for 'the passions of the mobs' taking over both seats of government. Together with the Filibuster, the framers wanted the Senate to be a place of reasoned debate and compromise, not just a second chamber with straight 'majority rule.' Remember that the Upper and Lower chambers STILL need to reconcile legislation for it to get to the President's desk and our history is FULL of examples where that has been done with great success. Consider that the power of the Purse was given to the House, not the Senate. Consider also that the State of Virginia was the largest, most influential state at that time and they were all-in on the concept of the Senate being this way. Unfortunately the Senate has lost most of its ability to work across the aisle, but adding more states won't solve that unless you view silencing Republicans as 'the right answer.'
82-T/A [At Work] DEC 10, 03:06 PM
Puerto Rico is a real possibility. That said, I'm not entirely sure Puerto Rico would be a solidly Democrat state like they think it would. Most of my Puerto Rican friends are conservative, and there's a strong portion of the population that's Conservative there. I believe it would be a swing state that /leans/ Democrat.

With respect to Washington D.C... I think that aspect of the discussion is rather pointless. The Constitution dictates that the nation's capitol reside on territory that is not a state and cannot create undue influence on the business of the country. Last time I spent any real time looking at this, it would require a constitutional convention to actually do such a thing.

This discussion should be Puerto Rico and Guam as states...
Notorio DEC 10, 04:54 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Puerto Rico is a real possibility. That said, I'm not entirely sure Puerto Rico would be a solidly Democrat state like they think it would. Most of my Puerto Rican friends are conservative, and there's a strong portion of the population that's Conservative there. I believe it would be a swing state that /leans/ Democrat.

With respect to Washington D.C... I think that aspect of the discussion is rather pointless. The Constitution dictates that the nation's capitol reside on territory that is not a state and cannot create undue influence on the business of the country. Last time I spent any real time looking at this, it would require a constitutional convention to actually do such a thing.

This discussion should be Puerto Rico and Guam as states...



Great point about DC and the (pesky old) Constitution.

I have a conservative friend from PR who now despises Trump b/c of his stupid comments about the big hurricane there, an ally needlessly lost when he really needed to build his base with other conservatives and moderates. Of course I have no idea how other PR nationals feel/felt about that and Trump in general. But looking at this another way, in the era of Wokeness and White Guilt, I wonder why anyone on the Left would seriously support PR becoming a state. Isn't this the Terminal Result of the West's colonial, rape and pillage policy? Wouldn't the preferred Leftist position be to support PR becoming an Independent Nation so it could be finally out from under the thumb of their evil master?

Here is another look at the Colonial population during the debates over the form of the General Government. Again, looking at Virginia as the gorilla in the room, they knowingly gave up some of their proportional power by enabling the likes of Rhode Island, Delaware, and Georgia to compete with their interests in the Senate on a 1:1 basis. To me this is especially telling when you consider the issue that almost sank the Union during its birth (i.e. Slavery), and that Rhode Island for sure and perhaps Delaware would be more inclined toward Abolition and thus not an ally in Virginia's interests in the Senate.
randye DEC 10, 06:57 PM

quote
Originally posted by Notorio:


Here is another look at the Colonial population during the debates over the form of the General Government. Again, looking at Virginia as the gorilla in the room, they knowingly gave up some of their proportional power by enabling the likes of Rhode Island, Delaware, and Georgia to compete with their interests in the Senate on a 1:1 basis. To me this is especially telling when you consider the issue that almost sank the Union during its birth (i.e. Slavery), and that Rhode Island for sure and perhaps Delaware would be more inclined toward Abolition and thus not an ally in Virginia's interests in the Senate.




Let's be very clear about this point.

Any "inclination toward abolition" was NOT founded in any moral considerations about slavery.

The issue was, as it always is, about POWER. Specifically power vested in some states , (like Virginia), over other states.

Slave states sought to include their slave populations to count toward representation in Congress.

The "Three Fifths Compromise" that was codified in the Constitution as part of Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3. Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment was the solution that all the other states, (slave and free), agreed to.

Pursuant to that amendment clause, slaves counted as "three fifths" of a person for the purpose of enumeration of a states population.

...........................................

As for the District of Columbia statehood Leftist fantasy, that is a battle I would love to see.

Todd aptly pointed out that it will require and amendment to the Constitution, specifically, Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17

Such an Amendment will require approval of TWO THIRDS of Congress, (not going to happen), AND ratification by THREE FOURTHS of the States, (definitely not going to happen)

A current bill just passed by the Demorats in the US House intends to drastically shrink the present District of Columbia down to just a few street blocks around the US Capitol building thus, (as Leftists fantasize), paving the way for them to try to create a 51st state out of the surrounding area outside of those few blocks, without a Constitutional amendment.

That little bit of chicanery is also not going to happen when the SCOTUS upholds the original intent of Article 1 which is the foundational bedrock of our Republic.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-10-2020).]

maryjane DEC 10, 09:12 PM

quote
This discussion should be Puerto Rico and Guam as states...



1,000 miles Miami to P.R. (a little over 2 hrs flight) is doable, but............
As much as I liked my very short stay in Guam, I can't really see 'us' having a state 4,000 miles West of Hawaii.

I soured on P.R right after they insisted the US get out of Rosie Roads and Vieques.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-10-2020).]

theBDub DEC 12, 12:20 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:

Puerto Rico is a real possibility. That said, I'm not entirely sure Puerto Rico would be a solidly Democrat state like they think it would. Most of my Puerto Rican friends are conservative, and there's a strong portion of the population that's Conservative there. I believe it would be a swing state that /leans/ Democrat.

With respect to Washington D.C... I think that aspect of the discussion is rather pointless. The Constitution dictates that the nation's capitol reside on territory that is not a state and cannot create undue influence on the business of the country. Last time I spent any real time looking at this, it would require a constitutional convention to actually do such a thing.

This discussion should be Puerto Rico and Guam as states...



Agreed on all fronts.

I’ve heard proponents of DC say they’ll make a little district within DC for federal. Seriously, at that point... what’s the point? In 30 years they’ll be saying that 100 sq ft district should be a state.