Helicopter/passenger plane collision. No survivors, 67 reported dead (Page 6/7)
82-T/A [At Work] FEB 06, 07:55 AM

quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

You know what I meant.




Hey, look... despite of what you might think... I'd go to a bar and have a few Coors Lights with you any day, and we'd have a blast.
cliffw FEB 06, 11:57 AM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Hey, look... despite of what you might think... I'd go to a bar and have a few Coors Lights with you any day, and we'd have a blast.



As would I Todd, if he buys, . Sarcasm.
blackrams FEB 06, 02:19 PM
A commercial pilot acquaintance of mine responded to my request for his take on what caused this crash. This was his response.



quote
It appears just a lot of things went just slightly wrong for this accident to happen. But first, the idea of closing this airport because of the proximity to things. Just not going to happen, too much money involved in many areas. First, the airlines themselves own the landing/departure slots once they are awarded by the government. And as efficiency improves they have awarded more and more slots to various airlines and routes. These slots can be sold and bought by other airlines but seldom become available because of the higher premium yield for DCA versus Dulles and Baltimore. And this is not the only airport with theses traffic congestion issues in cities . . . LaGuardia (also a slot controlled airport), San Francisco with two parcel runways so close together that landing in pairs is common several hundred feet apart (yes, passengers are quickly briefed over the PA), San Diego with a damm parking garage built on the approach path so the angle to the runway is steeper, etc. A lot of airports have issues, but pilots train for many of these airports in simulators. The worst of them, before a new Captain can fly in to them they have to ride with an experienced Captain into and out of the airport. All regulated by the FAA and watched over by them constantly. If you ever see a guy/gal in a pretty cheap blazer standing up by the cockpit before departure it is probably an FAA individual making a surprise ride along on a leg. Very, very common on our airlines.

Now, what went wrong, I believe a few things. The only altimeter I’m interested in is the Blackhawk. With several onboard at least one will be stuck at impact, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. As I said before, the circle to runway 33 is challenging. As is normally the case here, it comes late in the game and the crew has to decide quickly. I’ve never flown a CRJ like this, but I know the approach speeds are similar to an airliner twice its size because it has no leading edge devices to provide additional lift at slow speeds like a large airliner has. Hence 125knots in the flare is common . . . and now your on a short, short runway for those speeds. And B737’s and A320’s do this routinely as well. So the CRJ rounds the corner on short final and is going to be focused on a runway lighting system to provide a proper glide path. If the CRJ pilots are on top of their game they are on the lower end of that lighting system glide path. Remember, short runway . . . plant the airplane with little flare and stop the airplane. Nothing has to do with altimeters on short final like this, it is all visual . . . inside airspeed, outside lights of glidepath (repeat 10 times a second). And then, the barking of the collision avoidance system was hopefully going full blast. And then did the CRJ pilots hear the half conversation the controller was having with the Blackhawk while they were doing the circle??

The Blackhawk pilots were following the river south in a haphazard way, the communication with the tower was professional . . . but yet . . .i wonder did they really know what the CRJ was doing in the circle to runway 33?? I’m starting to think they did not know the flight path the CRJ was taking. And then they confused some other lights with the CRJ and thought they were well behind it.

The controller was counting on the Blackhawk to pass behinds the CRJ. When a pilot responds “in sight” and will pass visual behind that alleviates the controller of separation. The controller is visual with outside but would have a small radar scope near them for additional situational awareness at this level of airport. The controller questioned the Blackhawk pilot a second time if they had the CRJ because he/she could see the conflict.

So, the controller assumed the Blackhawk pilot knew the CRJ route but should have said “traffic 11’clock 2miles, pass behind as traffic passes left to right in front of you”. The controller “assumed’’ the Blackhawk pilots knew the route the CRJ was flying, a dangerous game.

So, the Blackhawk pilots probably did not know the airspace they were operating in well enough. But much of that only comes with experience, not book work. And that Blackhawk crew was probably on the lower end of experience; qualified and sharp pilots but just not seen everything DCA can throw at one. If there was a moment of doubt in their minds they should have asked for some guidance from the controller. (It is quite common and not frowned upon at all generally. But yet the IP had the more senior officer flying as copilot. Did that make him more hesitant to ask for directions??)

So, the CRJ, if that TCAS system was barking at them on short final, and you see a predator on the screen near you . . . go around and get away from the threat . . . Now! easy to say, though to do and abandon an approach. A second or two earlier on the go around and it would just be “a near miss paperwork shuffle”.

Anyone of these and everyone lives.

The aviation industry, like all highly skilled trades has seen a lot of turnover since Covid ended. Not sure if that has any influence on this accident.



What he could not address was the NVG issue that some claim may have been another factor.

Rams
blackrams FEB 06, 08:23 PM
NTSB chair claims Black Hawk helicopter crew wore night vision goggles before midair crash

NTSB Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy says preliminary data suggests the Black Hawk helicopter crew was wearing night vision goggles before colliding with a commercial jet last week.

Have to assume she knows something.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-06-2025).]

maryjane FEB 07, 09:07 PM
She also spoke with Senator Ted Cruz who related she said the Blackhawk's ADS-B was turned off.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-07-2025).]

blackrams FEB 07, 09:13 PM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

She also spoke with Senator Ted Cruz who related she said the Blackhawk's ADS-B was turned off.




I read that also. That one really confuses me. Especially in such congested airspace.

Rams
maryjane FEB 14, 06:31 PM
Highlights from yesterday's NTSB Update article:

The pilot flying the helicopter was on a check flight and being tested on the use of night vision goggles. Investigators believe the crew was wearing the goggles throughout the flight.

If at any point they wanted to remove them, they would have had to have a discussion about it, which cockpit recordings do not indicate.

The pilot of the passenger plane may have attempted a last-second move to avoid the collision, the NTSB previously determined.


...................................

There was also an apparent discrepancy between two of the three Army pilots about what altitude they were flying at, according to investigators — and they were well above the 200-foot limit for that location.

At one point before the collision, the helicopter’s pilot announced that they were at 300 feet, but the instructor pilot was also heard saying the helicopter was at 400 feet, according to recordings.

At the time of the fiery crash, the Black Hawk was flying at 278 feet, Homedy said, adding, “That doesn’t mean that’s what the Black Hawk crew was seeing on the barometric altimeters in the cockpit.”

................................................................................

Black Hawk pilots may not have heard a critical directive from air traffic control to fly behind the American Airlines plane in the seconds before it collided with the jet, and may have had “bad data” on the altitude they were flying at, according to investigators.

Seventeen seconds before the deadly Jan. 29 crash, which killed all 67 people aboard both flights, the Black Hawk was directed to pass behind the passenger jet, National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy said at a news conference.

“The portion of the transmission that stated ‘pass behind’ may not have been received by the Black Hawk crew,” Homendy explained.

The Black Hawk pilots likely “stepped on” the communication by pressing the mic in an attempt to communicate back to air traffic control.

The crew also may not have clearly heard that the American Airlines flight was “circling” in the DC airspace, investigators found.


My question.
I was always under the belief that any directive that ATC gave an aircraft, had to be repeated back by the receiving pilot.. no?
'flyboy1234, houstonatc, pass behind jetblue."
'houstonatc, flyboy1234 pass behind jetblue'
blackrams FEB 15, 09:35 AM
Previous reports indicted that the airfield tower instructed to return to the airfield. Has that been mis-reported or ignored?
My question is also to ask why the "Return to Base" if, that actually occurred.

Rams

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-15-2025).]

maryjane FEB 15, 11:05 AM

quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

Previous reports indicted that the airfield tower instructed to return to the airfield. Has that been mis-reported or ignored?
My question is also to ask why the "Return to Base" if, that actually occurred.

Rams



Instructed who?
(I never saw any ATC report saying that to any aircraft regarding this accident)..you have a link to it?)
cliffw FEB 15, 02:06 PM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
There was also an apparent discrepancy between two of the three Army pilots about what altitude they were flying at, according to investigators — and they were well above the 200-foot limit for that location.

At one point before the collision, the helicopter’s pilot announced that they were at 300 feet, but the instructor pilot was also heard saying the helicopter was at 400 feet, according to recordings.

At the time of the fiery crash, the Black Hawk was flying at 278 feet, Homedy said, adding, “That doesn’t mean that’s what the Black Hawk crew was seeing on the barometric altimeters in the cockpit.”




quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
The NTSB only has the data recorded. The recorders have to be calibrated at regular intervals. Including speed radar from local traffic cops.