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| Feeling responsible, guilty or just plain stupid? (Page 4/6) |
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theBDub
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APR 09, 11:50 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
Yep, I know what you said. And yet all those illegal aliens Non-Citizens are still eating up dollars, benefits and manpower assisting them that struggling Citizens could be using, all at the tax payer's expense. Or, taking jobs at lower wages and not paying taxes. It would seem there are many advantages to just crossing the open border and accepting all the "government" assistance now being provided (again, at our expense).
There is a process to legally immigrate into this country. It should be encouraged and enforced. Jumping to the front of the line is wrong whether it's at the movie theater or at the border.
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There are plenty of arguments that non-Citizen workers actually contribute more in taxes than they take, due to not being eligible for existing entitlement programs, but still paying wage and sales taxes. But I'd agree with regards to taking jobs.
No disagreement on there being a process. I think you're reading something that I'm not saying. I am a proponent of easier legal immigration, but do not support illegal immigration, nor do I support holding up a bunch of illegal immigrants in taxpayer-funded areas. I simply want to make it easier for those who want to do it right to do it right. Most illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed their Visa. The process is long and filled with holes. It doesn't really make any sense as it exists today.
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blackrams
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APR 09, 11:54 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by theBDub:
There are plenty of arguments that non-Citizen workers actually contribute more in taxes than they take, due to not being eligible for existing entitlement programs, but still paying wage and sales taxes. But I'd agree with regards to taking jobs.
No disagreement on there being a process. I think you're reading something that I'm not saying. I am a proponent of easier legal immigration, but do not support illegal immigration, nor do I support holding up a bunch of illegal immigrants in taxpayer-funded areas. I simply want to make it easier for those who want to do it right to do it right. Most illegal immigrants came here legally but overstayed their Visa. The process is long and filled with holes. It doesn't really make any sense as it exists today. |
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OK.
What do you prescribe we do with the current group now already being held in our facilities or currently either crossing or attempting to cross into the US via our open border?
I know what I'd do but very willing to listen to other ideas.
Rams
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theBDub
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APR 09, 11:59 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 2.5:
Thats nice sounding but societies of people have different rules and beliefs, thats how they became different societies to begin with. As much as we would love all people to act like upstanding Americans do, its not that easy.
What do you think about citizenship, does it mean anything to you? |
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My second paragraph of the comment you quoted addressed that it isn't realistic, especially today.
Where are you getting the question or where are you going with it? That would help me answer the question. Of course it means something to me. I just said I wanted to make it easier to obtain. I didn't say it didn't matter.
I understand that my beliefs are a bit out there. To help understand, I'm a Libertarian, and if you go through the Libertarian Party's beliefs, I'm pretty much fully aligned with few exceptions. However, there is a distinction in my mind between my true beliefs and what I think is realistic given the imperfect nature of humanity, and considering existing momentum. Essentially, I have what I'd call the "true beliefs" that are my foundation, and I have what might be considered compromises that sit above those that are more realistic.
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maryjane
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APR 09, 12:21 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
You just described the DMZ between North and South Korea.
Rams
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And the old Iron Curtain between East and West Berlin, as well as the no man's land (Cactus Curtain) around GTMO Naval Base.
Clinton ordered demining of the US area at GTMO in '96 but the Cubans have not removed theirs yet.
Safer trying to swim the shark infested water gate on Guantanamo River than try to cross the no man's land..
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2.5
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APR 09, 12:36 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by theBDub:
My second paragraph of the comment you quoted addressed that it isn't realistic, especially today.
Where are you getting the question or where are you going with it? That would help me answer the question. Of course it means something to me. I just said I wanted to make it easier to obtain. I didn't say it didn't matter.
I understand that my beliefs are a bit out there. To help understand, I'm a Libertarian, and if you go through the Libertarian Party's beliefs, I'm pretty much fully aligned with few exceptions. However, there is a distinction in my mind between my true beliefs and what I think is realistic given the imperfect nature of humanity, and considering existing momentum. Essentially, I have what I'd call the "true beliefs" that are my foundation, and I have what might be considered compromises that sit above those that are more realistic. |
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Here is the entire post that I read:
| quote | Originally posted by theBDub:
I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.
There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely! |
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You saying something isnt realistic today...means you still want it. I explained why it can't work. It's not just because of how things are today. Societies are societies, countries are countries, and there are borders for reasons, do you disagree? I'm getting this question because of what you said in the post I replied to.
Your response (in bold) clears it up a little, yes humanity is the problem, since that won't change, in my life I don't talk about utopian unobtainable scenarios as they only confuse progress.
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maryjane
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APR 09, 01:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by theBDub:
I find it hard to reconcile believing in any real inalienable rights and then saying it’s really dependent on where you were born.
There is a lot of realism that dampens the idea. Clearly you couldn’t just open it up today with our existing entitlement programs. But if, theoretically, we didn’t have those enticing programs, there wouldn’t be much downside to opening the borders. Let people come in and participate in the economy more freely! |
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There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.
There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.
If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.
Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.
I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.
It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-09-2021).]
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blackrams
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APR 09, 01:16 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.
There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.
If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.
Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.
I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.
It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.
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Agreed.
Add to that the new minimum wage being pushed through only adds to the middle class wage earner's challenges. More jobs will be automated, raises for lower skilled workers will increase but, those at the proposed levels will not get wage increases just because the minimum went up. Yep, we deserve the government we elected alright. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 04-09-2021).]
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maryjane
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APR 09, 01:31 PM
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We won't see the min wage bill get passed &signed for a while. Too hot of a potato right now.
There is, in my area, a dire shortage of low wage workers right now because of $1400 stimulus and extended unemployment bennies. Especially true in food service.
'How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen the free farm?'
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theBDub
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APR 09, 06:06 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
OK.
What do you prescribe we do with the current group now already being held in our facilities or currently either crossing or attempting to cross into the US via our open border?
I know what I'd do but very willing to listen to other ideas.
Rams |
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Either send them home or change the laws for everyone, but I don't believe in providing exceptions. So for now it would be to send them back.
| quote | Originally posted by 2.5:
You saying something isnt realistic today...means you still want it. I explained why it can't work. It's not just because of how things are today. Societies are societies, countries are countries, and there are borders for reasons, do you disagree? I'm getting this question because of what you said in the post I replied to.
Your response (in bold) clears it up a little, yes humanity is the problem, since that won't change, in my life I don't talk about utopian unobtainable scenarios as they only confuse progress. |
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Countries have molded over time to what they are today. Influence changes. Once, the Roman empire ruled the world. It doesn't anymore. Once, Spain, France, and England ruled much of the world. They don't anymore. Borders exist for a myriad of reasons, but often the people near these borders are more similar than the people a thousand miles away within the same border line.
I don't disagree that they exist for a reason, but I do disagree that they have to.
| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
There would be to current and future blue collar workers in the non-border states most directly affected.
What much of America is seeing today and recently, the border states have endured for decades.
Nowadays (maybe Calif excepted) the border states have become 'pass-thru' states, just as Mexico is now to illegals from central and south America.
There is a misconception that illegal immigrants only take jobs 'Americans' don't want or won't do and that simply is not true. Traditionally, heavy equipment operators, house framers, roofers and other trades made very good livings. Nowadays, even tho the wages have risen compared to past decades, those trades and many others in border states are now filled with mostly Hispanics and have been for at least 2-3 decades. It's not that non-Hispanic Americans won't do or don't want those jobs, it's much more a case of them being squeezed out by immigrants, both legal and illegal. The same is true in upstream oil & gas. In the 70s and 80s, I rarely if ever saw a Mexican on a drilling rig. Now, it's hard to find a rig without a Hispanic crew on the floor.
If you are going to open the border, you better have a plan for where the rest of the near future US workforce is going to find a job.
Temp visas for the ag sector (commonly referred to as migrant workers) worked very good in the past. Not so much any more. Too many runners that decide to stay and just disappear into the fabric of America after their visa period ends. We have no idea where they are today, numbering in the millions.
I am NOT 1 bit in favor of rewarding current illegal residents with citizenship. I do not care how long they have been here. If they want citizenship, make them return to country of origin, go thru the legal process the millions of legal immigrants did.
It is extremely easy to get a very good but fraudulent ID and extremely difficult to detect a fraudulent id in the majority of cases.
When the Fed's own protocol for culling out illegal IDs is inefficient, they shouldn't hold or punish the employer responsible for it, but they often do.
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Yes, it would impact people. That doesn't mean it's a net negative. Jobs are not provided by rights, they're provided by employers because the value of that labor is determined to be more than the cost of that labor. More people present in an economy allows the economy to grow with more consumers. Does the U.S. really have to have a plan in place to replace blue collar jobs? Why is it the government's responsibility to care for those people? Those jobs are not guaranteed, they never have been. My job is not guaranteed. I used to work in Oil and Gas, and was laid off when the industry crashed in 2015. I had to reinvent myself just like many others. That's life.[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 04-09-2021).]
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maryjane
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APR 09, 07:16 PM
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| quote | | Yes, it would impact people. That doesn't mean it's a net negative. Jobs are not provided by rights, they're provided by employers because the value of that labor is determined to be more than the cost of that labor. More people present in an economy allows the economy to grow with more consumers. Does the U.S. really have to have a plan in place to replace blue collar jobs? Why is it the government's responsibility to care for those people? Those jobs are not guaranteed, they never have been. My job is not guaranteed. I used to work in Oil and Gas, and was laid off when the industry crashed in 2015. I had to reinvent myself just like many others. That's life. |
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Now, apply that same construct to the population of Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, et al. Do you tell the populations of those countries "That's life?"
Evidently not.
Foreigners have no implied or stated right to enter this country either, but many believe they do.
On one hand you say it is not the govt's job to provide jobs, but by pushing for this and other federal administrations to open borders, that is exactly what you are wanting the US Govt to do; provide jobs , albeit for people in other counties. You don't get to have it both ways.
When there is a surplus of any commodity, including labor, what happens to the consumer cost of those commodities? They stay the same or decrease.
Wages? The wages become stagnant if not decrease.
It's called 'The Job Market' for a reason.
"Labor Supply and Demand
When unemployment is high, the number of people looking for work significantly exceeds the number of jobs available. In other words, the supply of labor is greater than the demand for it.
Let's take wage inflation—the rate of change in wages—as a proxy for inflation in the economy. With so many workers available, there's little need for employers to "bid" for the services of employees by paying them higher wages. In times of high unemployment, wages typically remain stagnant, and wage inflation (or rising wages) is non-existent.2
In times of low unemployment, the demand for labor by employers exceeds the supply. In such a tight labor market, employers typically need to pay higher wages to attract employees, ultimately leading to rising wage inflation.
Over the years, economists have studied the relationship between unemployment and wage inflation, as well as the overall inflation rate."[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-09-2021).]
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