 
     |
| Helicopter/passenger plane collision. No survivors, 67 reported dead (Page 3/7) |
|
gregr75
|
JAN 31, 11:45 PM
|
|
In this day and age didnt both aircraft have some type of TCAS system onboard that would alert the pilots? and probably an audible warning?
Im sure Washington must be airspace that requires aircraft to have ADS B signals and transponders. all civil aircraft should be able to see eachother? maybe military is different?[This message has been edited by gregr75 (edited 01-31-2025).]
|
|
|
|
Patrick
|
FEB 01, 12:11 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
Depends, whether one views that the price of liberty is always to be borne only by those in uniform or not.
|
|
It's debatable if "the price of liberty" should include sacrificing school age children while running a training exercise.
I suspect there'll at least be a review of the necessity for military training exercises to be run in the vicinity of busy civilian airports. The powers that be may indeed decide that it's acceptable to put the occasional civilian airliner in the river.
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
FEB 01, 12:56 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by gregr75:
In this day and age didnt both aircraft have some type of TCAS system onboard that would alert the pilots? and probably an audible warning?
Im sure Washington must be airspace that requires aircraft to have ADS B signals and transponders. all civil aircraft should be able to see eachother? maybe military is different?
|
|
In regards to the passenger jet, the cockpit warnings don't work the same way once it begins final.
I have no idea what modern helos have in regards to surrounding aircraft but I doubt it's changed terribly since I was crew on CH-53s. Pilots relied solely on the left and right gunners for clearance warnings from about 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock and 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock both while taxiing and in flight. On the port (left) side, From 12 o'clock back to around 9 or 10 0'clock and on starboard (right) side 12 o'clock to around 2 or 3 o'clock the pilots could see better than the crew. Where the pilots' view ends and the crews' begins depends on the helo type and how it may be configured. Most military helos the crew can lean out and even see behind the helo to provide voice clearance to pilots if reward movement of the helo is needed.
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
FEB 01, 02:15 AM
|
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
FEB 01, 10:55 AM
|
|
Reuters News reports that the Blackhawk was undergoing it's annual retraining for night ops and is part of the nation's 'continuance of government' thing, otherwise known as doomsday, where top govt officials are evacuated from Wash DC. The article also very strongly suggested that the flight was conducted using night vision.
WASHINGTON, Feb 1 (Reuters) - The Black Hawk helicopter that collided with a passenger jet in Washington on Wednesday was on a training flight along a route core to a seldom-discussed military mission to evacuate senior officials to safety in the event of an attack on the U.S., officials say.
The military mission, known as "continuity of government" and "continuity of operations," is meant to preserve the ability of the U.S. government to operate.
Most days, crews like the one killed on Wednesday transport VIPs around Washington, which is buzzing with helicopter traffic.
But U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth disclosed the Black Hawk crew's ties to the mission during a White House press conference on Thursday, saying they "were on a routine, annual re-training of night flights on a standard corridor for a continuity of government mission."
Still, little of such missions is publicly discussed.
The three soldiers killed in the collision were part of the 12th Aviation Battalion at Fort Belvoir in Virginia, whose responsibilities in a national crisis include evacuating Pentagon officials. Another 64 people were killed in the passenger plane.
The Black Hawk crew, using night vision goggles, flew the training mission along the Potomac River on a path known as Route 4. As the Army comes under scrutiny for operating at night near a busy airport, officials have pointed to the battalion's sensitive operations.
"Some of their mission is to support the Department of Defense if something really bad happens in this area, and we need to move our senior leaders," said Jonathan Koziol, the chief of staff of the Army's Aviation Directorate.
SEPT. 11 EMERGENCY FLIGHTS
The most recent time the U.S. government is known to have activated a continuity of operations mission in an emergency was on Sept. 11, 2001, when al Qaeda hijackers slammed airplanes into the World Trade Center in New York City and the Pentagon, killing almost 3,000 people.
Reuters was able to establish some of the activities of the 12th Aviation Battalion that day.
"The battalion helped transport some senior leaders out of Washington, D.C. to 'hide sites,'" Bradley Bowman, a former Army aviation officer who flew on Sept. 11 as part of the 12th Aviation Battalion.
That evening, Bowman flew a Black Hawk to pick up then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz at one of those sites and fly him back to the Pentagon.
There was just one problem -- the Pentagon's helicopter landing pad used to pick up and drop off VIPs was destroyed.
"We just repositioned and landed in the traffic circle of 395, which had been closed by that point," Bowman said, referring to I-395 highway that loops around the U.S. military's headquarters.
Wolfowitz was quoted in a 2017 book describing going to a "bizarre location that was prepared to survive nuclear war."
The book's author, Garrett Graff, said the site was called Raven Rock Mountain Complex, or "Site R," located just miles from Camp David. It remains one of three main backup facilities for the U.S. government, and the main one for the Pentagon leadership.
"It's 100 percent operational today. There's a team of maybe 100 personnel inside Raven Rock right now, ready to pick up the pieces of the U.S. government," Graff said.
https://www.reuters.com/wor...eadiness-2025-02-01/[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-01-2025).]
|
|
|
cliffw
|
FEB 01, 12:15 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
Some images of ATC radar I'veseen this morning, showed the helo's altitude at 200', then just before collision, increase to 300' just as jet was descending from 400' to 300'.
|
|
I heard the helo was supposed to maintain a 200' altitude. Neither aircraft knew the altitude of the other. The helo might have got wrong the trajectory of the plane and tried to avoid what eventually happened.
|
|
|
cliffw
|
FEB 01, 12:20 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I'm pretty sure no one on that plane signed a waiver form agreeing to be involved in a military exercise.
|
|
I have never signed a form agreeing not to be involved in any crash. Involving military or not. The people in the attack to us on 9/1/01 signed an agreement to be involved in a terrorist attack.
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
FEB 01, 12:47 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
I have never signed a form agreeing not to be involved in any crash. Involving military or not. . |
|
You did, you just didn't read the very fine print. 
|
|
|
cliffw
|
FEB 01, 01:06 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
You did, you just didn't read the very fine print. |
|
Does that mean Patrick was finally wrong ?
| quote | Originally posted by Patrick:
I'm pretty sure no one on that plane signed a waiver form agreeing to be involved in a military exercise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
maryjane
|
FEB 01, 01:12 PM
|
|
See the smiley?
(but Patrick, like everyone else, (myself included) has been wrong lots of times. He just doesn't ever admit it)
|
|
|
|