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| Back in 1836, Houston Said To Travis ... (Page 3/4) |
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cliffw
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MAR 17, 10:50 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by blackrams: If this is accurate, only a few of the defenders were actually Texans.
Just a quick glance and it appears there were more Kentuckians and Tennesseans there than Texans. Who knew............  Edited: Seeing it highlighted with the different states colored as they are puts a whole different perspective on defending the Alamo.
Rams
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It's not accurate. Where did you get that ?
It lists (I counted) 255 Alamo defenders. The ?fable? goes ...
| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
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..."185, holding back 5,000.
Most glaring in you discovery, is that only three defenders were from the State of Texas. Which did not exist yet. I also only saw three people who were from Mexico. Ludicrous. Fact is, Santa Anna had no desires in his Tejas territory. He allowed people to come in freely to develop it for him. There was much freedom and people came from all over to bask in it. From Mexico, the United States, and your list even listed some from ..., three from Scotland, eleven from England, nine from Ireland, one from "England or Ireland", and one from Denmark.
| quote | Originally posted by blackrams: If this is accurate, only a few of the defenders were actually Texans. Though, Americans (and others) from all over died for a worthy cause.
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| quote | Originally posted by sourmash: Some of us knew. Not always, or necessarily in this thread, but frequently Texans need to be reminded. It's always an opportunity to inform readers. |
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Your right. Let me take this opportunity to inform YOU. All those people did not rush in to save three Texans. They were Tejanos, as the territory was know as Tejas.
| quote | Originally posted by blackrams: ... Americans (and others) from all over died for a worthy cause. |
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As did many Mexican nationals, .
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blackrams
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MAR 18, 03:46 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
It's not accurate. Where did you get that ? . |
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Cliffw,
Pretty sure there's a link provided as to where I got it. I'm not sure where you came up with that "three" Texans number and I definitely did not suggest Texas was a state anywhere. 
| quote | Identifying the combatants Below are 256 known combatants: 212 who died during the siege, 43 survivors, and one escapee who later died of his wounds.
Mexican Colonel Juan Almonte, Santa Anna's aide-de-camp, recorded the Texian fatality toll as 250 in his March 6 journal entry. He listed the survivors as five women, one Mexican soldier and one slave. Almonte did not record names, and his count was based solely on who was there during the final assault.[15] Santa Anna reported to Mexico's Secretary of War Tornel that Texian fatalities exceeded 600. Historians Jack Jackson and John Wheat attributed that high figure to Santa Anna's playing to his political base.[16]
Research into the battle, and exactly who was inside the fortress, began when the Alamo fell and has continued with no signs of abatement. The first published Texian list of casualties was in the March 24, 1836 issue of the Telegraph and Texas Register. The 115 names were supplied by couriers John Smith and Gerald Navan,[17] whom historian Thomas Ricks Lindley believed likely drew from their own memories, as well as from interviews with those who might have left or tried to enter.[18] In an 1860 statement for the Texas Almanac, former San Antonio alcalde (mayor) Francisco Antonio Ruiz set the number at 182.[19]
When the Alamo Cenotaph was created by Pompeo Coppini in 1939, the 187 defender names on the monument came from the research of Amelia Williams,[20] considered the leading Alamo authority of her day.[21] Her work is still used by some as a benchmark, although skepticism has been voiced. Lindley's 2003 Alamo Traces: New Evidence and New Conclusions is the result of his 15-year study of the battle, and upended much of what was previously accepted as fact.[22] He devoted a chapter to deconstructing Williams' research as "misrepresentation, alteration, and fabrication of data",[23] criticizing her sole reliance on the military land grants without checking through the muster lists to identify the combatants.[24] In lieu of service pay, the cash-poor Republic of Texas adopted the system of military land grants. Issuance was dependent upon the military muster lists and either the veterans or their heirs filing a claim, a process that required an upfront fee to complete. Lacking a completed claim, proof of service would appear only on a muster list.[25]
In the pursuit of uncovering every infinitesimal piece of evidence about what happened during the battle, more thorough research methods continue to evolve and Tejanos have begun to add their voices. Until recent decades, accounts of Tejano participation in the Texas revolution were notably absent, but historians such as Timothy M. Matovina[26] and Jesús F. de la Teja[27] have helped add that missing perspective to the battle's events. |
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The above information is from the same Wikipedia link. If there's a problem with the linked information, take it up with Wikipedia, not me. 
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 03-18-2021).]
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rinselberg
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MAR 18, 03:48 AM
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The defenders of the Alamo had "True Grid"--unlike ERCOT.
I just had to say it. I hope people "get" it.
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maryjane
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MAR 18, 03:11 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by blackrams:
If this is accurate, only a few of the defenders were actually Texans. Though, Americans (and others) from all over died for a worthy cause.
Defenders Name Rank Birth year Birthplace Juan Abamillo SGT — Texas James L. Allen PVT 1815 Kentucky Robert Allen PVT — Virginia Horace Alsbury PVT 1805 Kentucky George Andrews — — — Miles DeForest Andross PVT 1809 Vermont José María Arocha — — — Simon Arreola — — — Micajah Autry PVT 1793[34] North Carolina Jesse B. Badgett — 1807 Texas A. Badillo SGT — Texas Peter James Bailey III PVT 1812 Kentucky Isaac G. Baker PVT 1814 Arkansas William Charles M. Baker CPT — Missouri John Ballard — — — John J. Ballentine PVT — Pennsylvania Richard W. Ballentine PVT 1814 Scotland Andrew Barcena — — — John J. Baugh CPT 1803 Virginia Samuel G. Bastain — — Louisiana Joseph Bayliss PVT 1808 Tennessee John Walker Baylor Jr. PVT 1813 Kentucky Anselmo Bergara — — Mexico John Blair PVT 1803 Tennessee Samuel Blair CPT 1807 Tennessee William Blazeby CPT 1795 England James Bonham 2LT 1807 South Carolina Daniel Bourne PVT 1810 England James Bowie COL c. 1796 Kentucky J. B. Bowman — — — Robert Brown PVT c. 1818 James Buchanan PVT 1813 Alabama Samuel E. Burns PVT 1810 Ireland George D. Butler PVT 1813 Missouri John Cain PVT 1802 Pennsylvania Robert Campbell LT 1810 Tennessee William R. Carey CPT 1806 [b]Virginia[/b] Cesario Carmona — — — M.B. Clark PVT — Mississippi Daniel W. Cloud PVT 1812 Kentucky Robert E. Cochran PVT 1810 New Hampshire George Washington Cottle LT 1811 Missouri Henry Courtman PVT 1808 Germany Lemuel Crawford PVT 1814 South Carolina David Crockett COL 1786 Tennessee Robert Crossman PVT 1810 Pennsylvania Antonio Cruz y Arocha PVT — Mexico David P. Cummings PVT 1809 Pennsylvania Robert Cunningham PVT 1804 New York Matias Curvier — — — Jacob C. Darst LT 1793 Kentucky John Davis PVT 1811 Kentucky Freeman H.K. Day PVT 1806 Squire Daymon PVT 1808 Tennessee William Dearduff PVT c. 1811 Tennessee Alexandro De la Garza PVT — Texas Stephen Dennison PVT 1812 ]England or Ireland Francis L. DeSauque CPT — Pennsylvania John Desauque — — Louisiana Charles Despallier PVT 1812 Louisiana Lewis Dewall PVT 1812 New York Almaron Dickinson CPT 1810 Tennessee James Dickson — — — John Henry Dillard PVT 1805 Tennessee Philip Dimmitt CPT 1801 Kentucky James R. Dimpkins SGT — England Andrew Duvalt PVT 1804 Ireland Samuel M. Edwards — — — Conrad Eigenauer — — — J.D. Elliott — — — Frederick E. Elm — — — Lucio Enriques — — — Carlos Espalier PVT 1819 Texas José Gregorio Esparza PVT 1802 Texas Robert Evans MAJ 1800 Ireland Samuel B. Evans PVT 1812 New York James L. Ewing PVT 1812 Tennessee William Keener Fauntleroy PVT 1814 Kentucky William Fishbaugh PVT — Alabama John Flanders PVT 1800 Salisbury, Massachusetts Manuel N. Flores — c.1801 Texas Salvador Flores CPT 1806 Texas Dolphin Ward Floyd PVT 1804 North Carolina John Hubbard Forsyth CPT 1797 New York Antonio Fuentes PVT 1813 Texas Galba Fuqua PVT 1819 Alabama William Garnett PVT 1812 Virginia James W. Garrand PVT 1813 Louisiana James Girard Garrett PVT 1806 Tennessee John E. Garvin PVT 1809 — John E. Gaston PVT 1819 — James George PVT 1802 — William George — — — James Gibson — — — John C. Goodrich CNT 1809 Virginia Francis H. Gray — — — W.T. Green — — — Albert Calvin Grimes PVT 1817 Georgia Ignacio Gurrea — — — Brigido Guerrero PVT — Mexico James C. Gwin PVT 1804 England John Harris PVT 1813 Kentucky Andrew Jackson Harrison PVT 1809 Tennessee I.L.K. Harrison — — — William B. Harrison CPT 1811 Ohio Joseph M. Hawkins PVT 1799 Ireland John M. Hays PVT 1814 Tennessee Charles M. Heiskell PVT 1813 Tennessee Patrick Henry Herndon PVT 1802 Virginia Pedro Herrera — — — William Daniel Hersee SGT 1805 England Benjamin Franklin Highsmith PVT 1817 Missouri Tapley Holland PVT 1810 Ohio James Holloway — — — Samuel Holloway PVT 1808 Pennsylvania William D. Howell — 1791 Massachusetts William Hunter — — — Thomas P. Hutchinson — — — William A. Irwin — — — Thomas R. Jackson PVT — Ireland William Daniel Jackson LT 1807 Kentucky Green B. Jameson MAJ 1807 Kentucky Gordon C. Jennings CPL 1780 Connecticut Damacio Jiménez PVT — Texas John Johnson PVT 1800 Missouri Lewis Johnson PVT — Illinois William Johnson PVT — Pennsylvania[font=Arial][/font] William P. Johnson SGT — — John Jones 1LT 1810 New York John Benjamin Kellogg LT 1817 Kentucky James Kenny PVT 1814 Virginia Andrew Kent PVT 1791 Kentucy Joseph Kent — — — Joseph Kerr PVT 1814 Louisiana George C. Kimble LT 1803 Pennsylvania John C. Kin — — — William Philip King PVT 1820 Mississippi William Irvine Lewis PVT 1806 Virginia William J. Lightfoot 3CPL 1805 Kentucky Jonathan Lindley PVT 1814 Illinois William Linn PVT — Massachusetts Byrd Lockhart CPT 1782 Virginia Toribio Losoya PVT 1808 Texas George Washington Main LT 1807 Virginia William T. Malone PVT 1817 Georgia William Marshall PVT 1808 Tennessee Albert Martin 1808 Rhode Island Samuel Augustus Maverick PVT 1803 South Carolina Edward McCafferty LT — — Ross McClelland — — — Daniel McCoy Jr. — — — Prospect McCoy — — — William McDowell PVT 1794 Pennsylvania James McGee PVT — Ireland John McGregor SGT — Scotland Robert McKinney PVT 1809 Ireland S.W. McNeilly — — — Eliel Melton QM, LT 1798 Georgia Antonio Menchaca — 1800 Texas Thomas R. Miller PVT 1795 Tennessee William Mills PVT 1815 Tennessee Isaac Millsaps PVT c. 1795 Mississippi Edward F. Mitchasson — 1806 Virginia Edwin T. Mitchell PVT 1806 — Napoleon B. Mitchell PVT 1804 — Robert B. Moore PVT 1781 Virginia Willis A. Moore PVT 1808 John Morman — — — fatality William Morrison — — — Robert Musselman SGT 1805 Ohio James Nash — — — Andrés Nava SGT 1810 Texas Gerald Navan PVT — — George Neggan PVT 1808 South Carolina Andrew M. Nelson PVT 1809 Tennessee Edward Nelson PVT 1816 South Carolina George Nelson PVT 1805 South Carolina Benjamin F. Nobles LT — — James Northcross PVT 1804 Virginia James Nowlan PVT 1809 England L.R. O'Neil — — — George Olamio PVT — Ireland William Sanders Oury PVT 1817 Virginia Jose Sebastian "Luciano" Pacheco — — — George Pagan PVT 1810 — Christopher Adams Parker PVT 1814 William Parks PVT 1805 North Carolina William Patton AQM, LT 1808 Kentucky Richardson Perry PVT 1817 Mississippi Amos Pollard — 1803 Massachusetts Eduardo Ramirez — — — John Purdy Reynolds PVT 1806 Pennsylvania Thomas H. Roberts PVT — — James Waters Robertson PVT 1812 Tennessee Ambrosio Rodriguez — — — Guadalupe Rodriquez — — — James M. Rose PVT 1805 Ohio Jacob Roth MAJ — — Jackson J. Rusk PVT — Ireland Joseph Rutherford 1798 Kentucky Isaac Ryan PVT 1805 Louisiana W.H. Sanders — — — Mial Scurlock PVT 1809 North Carolina Juan Seguín CPT 1806 Texas Marcus L. Sewell PVT 1805 England Manson Shied PVT 1811 Georgia Silvero — — — Cleveland Kinloch Simmons LT 1815 South Carolina Andrew H. Smith PVT 1815 Tennessee Charles S. Smith PVT 1806 Maryland John William Smith — 1792 Virginia Joshua G. Smith SGT 1808 North Carolina William H. Smith PVT 1811 — Launcelot Smither PVT 1800 — Andrew Jackson Sowell PVT 1815 Tennessee John Spratt — — — Richard Starr PVT 1811 England James E. Stewart PVT 1808 England Richard L. Stockton PVT 1817 New Jersey A. Spain Summerlin PVT 1817 Tennessee William E. Summers PVT 1812 Tennessee John Sutherland PVT 1792 Virginia William DePriest Sutherland PVT 1818 Alabama Edward Taylor PVT 1812 Tennessee George Taylor PVT 1816 Tennessee James Taylor PVT 1814 Tennessee William Taylor PVT 1799 Tennessee B. Archer M. Thomas PVT 1818 Kentucky Henry Thomas PVT 1811 Germany Thompson — — — John W. Thomson PVT 1807 North Carolina John, M. Thurston 2LT 1812 Pennsylvania Burke Trammel PVT 1810 Ireland Joe Travis — 1813 or 1815 Alabama William B. Travis LTC 1809 South Carolina George W. Tumlinson PVT 1814 Missouri James Tylee, James PVT 1795 New York Asa Walker PVT 1813 Tennessee Jacob Walker PVT 1799 Tennessee William B. Ward SGT 1806 Ireland Henry Warnell PVT 1812 Arkansas Joseph G. Washington PVT c. 1808 Tennessee Thomas Waters PVT 1812 England William Wells PVT 1798 Georgia Isaac White SGT — — Robert White CPT 1806 England Hiram James Williamson SMA 1810 Pennsylvania William Wills — — — David L. Wilson PVT 1807 Scotland John Wilson PVT 1804 Pennsylvania Anthony Wolf PVT 1782 — Claiborne Wright PVT 1810 North Carolina Charles Zanco LT 1808 Denmark Vicente Zepeda — — —
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...t_of_Alamo_defenders
Just a quick glance and it appears there were more Kentuckians and Tennesseans there than Texans. Who knew............  Edited: Seeing it highlighted with the different states colored as they are puts a whole different perspective on defending the Alamo.
Rams
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The list exceeds the # of official members that fought & died at the Alamo because it is a list of all that were known to have remained there AFTER the 1st Battle of Bexar. There is a reason, which I previously stated, why there were no Texas born Anglos at the Battle of the Alamo. The list has at least one error in it. Not surprising considering the source. Jesse B Badgett was born (approx 1807) in North Carolina as was his brother Andrew. Both had property in Arkansas as adults and they crossed into Texas from Louisiana in Nov 1835 and in Dec 1835 enlisted. Jesse Badgett was elected as a delegate to the Texas Convention of 1836, departed Bexar on Feb 17, 1836 and on March 3, 1836 was a signer of the Texas Declaration of Independence at Washington-on-the Brazos. He returned to Arkansas in early April (before the Battle of San Jacinto) and it is believed he died there. Jesse B Badgett left the Alamo in San Antonio, Bexar colony for Washington-on-the-Brazos, Texas on February 17, 1836. This was a 169 mile trip from the Alamo, either by foot or horse. He missed the entire Siege and Battle of the Alamo.
The delegates to the Convention at Washington-on-the-Brazos arrived on March 1, 1836, drafted the declaration of Independence, and rehashed it March 2, signed on March 2, and 3, 1836.
Jesse's name is first on the list of signers of the Declaration.
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blackrams
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MAR 18, 04:58 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
The list exceeds the # of official members that fought & died at the Alamo because it is a list of all that were known to have remained there AFTER the 1st Battle of Bexar. There is a reason, which I previously stated, why there were no Texas born Anglos at the Battle of the Alamo. The list has at least one error in it. Not surprising considering the source. Jesse B Badgett was born (approx 1807) in North Carolina as was his brother Andrew. Both had property in Arkansas as adults and they crossed into Texas from Louisiana in Nov 1835 and in Dec 1835 enlisted. Jesse Badgett was elected as a delegate to the Texas Convention of 1836, departed Bexar on Feb 17, 1836 and on March 3, 1836 was a signer of the Texas Declaration of Independence at Washington-on-the Brazos. He returned to Arkansas in early April (before the Battle of San Jacinto) and it is believed he died there. Jesse B Badgett left the Alamo in San Antonio, Bexar colony for Washington-on-the-Brazos, Texas on February 17, 1836. This was a 169 mile trip from the Alamo, either by foot or horse. He missed the entire Siege and Battle of the Alamo.
The delegates to the Convention at Washington-on-the-Brazos arrived on March 1, 1836, drafted the declaration of Independence, and rehashed it March 2, signed on March 2, and 3, 1836.
Jesse's name is first on the list of signers of the Declaration.
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Good information, thanks. 
Rams
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maryjane
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MAR 18, 06:52 PM
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The closest chronological muster to Mar 6 1836 of Travis's command carries 194 names, as does Alamo.Org. 3 are known to have been non-combatants & survived the final battle and 2 were sent out as couriers on Mar 5. Of the 3 survivors, 2 were slaves and one was a Mexican Army deserter that convinced Santa Anna he had been a POW and his life was spared.
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blackrams
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MAR 18, 08:25 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
The closest chronological muster to Mar 6 1836 of Travis's command carries 194 names, as does Alamo.Org. 3 are known to have been non-combatants & survived the final battle and 2 were sent out as couriers on Mar 5. Of the 3 survivors, 2 were slaves and one was a Mexican Army deserter that convinced Santa Anna he had been a POW and his life was spared.
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Interesting information.
Rams
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cliffw
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MAR 19, 07:25 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by maryjane: Of the 3 survivors, 2 were slaves and one was a Mexican Army deserter that convinced Santa Anna he had been a POW and his life was spared.
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Uhh, Susanna Dickinson, husband of defender Almaron Dickinson, and their daughter Angelina, their lives were also spared.
I thought it was three survivors. One slave (who I hear had permission to leave), Susanna Dickinson, and her daughter Angelina.
I think an old Roman tactic. Leave a couple of survivors to spread the fear.
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maryjane
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MAR 19, 10:05 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by cliffw:
Uhh, Susanna Dickinson, husband of defender Almaron Dickinson, and their daughter Angelina, their lives were also spared.
I thought it was three survivors. One slave (who I hear had permission to leave), Susanna Dickinson, and her daughter Angelina.
I think an old Roman tactic. Leave a couple of survivors to spread the fear. |
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Santa Anna the Butcher of Goliad , had no need to spread the fear by way of survivors. His reputation had preceded him even before he arrived in Bexar for the 2nd time.
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cliffw
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APR 21, 09:22 AM
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In the meantime, since the fall of The Alamo, ... , Houston and the Texian army "fled" north east. The Mexican army was celebrating their victory, more so the Mexican elites. The rank and file were piling all the dead bodies in a pile, to be burned. (I am unsure if Mexican army dead bodies were piled on top of Texian bodies.) The ... "burn site" was made into a monument, a pyre.
As Sam Houston was "fleeing" he was enlisting recruits. Plenty of pissed off volunteers, (like 9/11). The pissed off troops were getting more pissed off because Houston would not let them fight for vengance.
After the Mexican celebration, Santa Anna pursued the Texians to crush them for once and all. (The Mexicans had faced far too many embarrassments.) Raiding towns and pillaging then burning villages in their pursuit.
The Mexican army, feeling embolden by victories and the "seemingly fleeing" Texian army, was hoping to trap the Texian army. Sam Houston, could have jumped the border and fled to Louisiana, the United States. The "chase" ended around what is now known as Houston Texas.
The Mexicans, feeling invincible, never posted guards, thinking they would never be attacked by an inferior army. The Texian scouts reported that the enemy was having a big azz party.
Sam Houston decided to pounce. Early in the morning as the Mexicans were "hanging over" or asleep still, the Texians charged. Yelling "Remember the Alamo, remember Goliad". Charging from the direction of the morning sun blinding the Mexicans.
The battle was over in 18 minutes, 18 minutes. Eighteen minutes to defeat the "Napoléon of the West". The Mexican army fled in fear. Yet their backs were to a body of water. Nowhere to flee.
Santa Anna, concerned, ordered a Private to exchange uniforms. As the Texians were rounding up "prisoners of war", the Texians noticed every prisoner were saluting a Private. It was Santa Anna.
Many of the Texians wanted to play "El Degüello" and put Santa Anna to death. Just as Santa Anna had done at the Battle of the Alamo and also at Goliad.
Sam Houston had a different tact. He allowed Santa Anna to live, if he ceded Texas, which he did.
What Sam Houston did was brilliance. He lured away Santa Anna from his resuppy lines, reinforcement lines.
I am Texas proud, born in England, been here since the fifth grade, 1968 . I would love to hear of the history of your States.
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