 
     |
| The Trump Impeachment Proceedings (Page 21/49) |
|
williegoat
|
DEC 20, 08:24 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
Honestly, I do not know for a fact if he needs to have a trial from the Senate to be considered "impeached". But the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to require a Senate trail. Out on the streets, the everyday "Joe" can't be convicted of a crime without a trial, even though "suspicion" cost them time in Jail and charges brought up against them.... they are still not convicted of the crime till the proper due process has played out. And even then the process is so strict on "dotting the i's and crossing the t's" that the case against the person can be dropped, dismissed or appealed on the smallest of issues.
It just makes sense to me that the full process needs to be carried out to the end. Without an end to the process, Trump can't be legitimately declared "impeached". He technically can only be called "in the process of being impeached".
This is the equivalent of being accused of a crime, being arraigned to court, having the charges against you formally read: then dismissing the Courtroom before the Jury is selected. |
|
Here is why I think I disagree:
There are three pertinent clauses in the Constitution.
Article 1, Section 2, Clause 5:
"The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."
Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7:
"The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
The phrase "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment" means (to me) that the House creates the impeachment, which the Senate will try.
Of course I am just an old, retired truck driver.
|
|
|
|
williegoat
|
DEC 20, 08:36 PM
|
|
|
I probably should have said, "which the Senate may try". I don't think they are required to have a trial. As I understand it, they could drop the charges.
|
|
|
|
Khw
|
DEC 20, 08:42 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by williegoat:
Here is why I think I disagree:
There are three pertinent clauses in the Constitution.
Article 1, Section 2, Clause 5:
"The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."
Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7:
"The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
The phrase "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment" means (to me) that the House creates the impeachment, which the Senate will try.
Of course I am just an old, retired truck driver.
|
|
I get what you are saying but your next article.
| quote | Article 1, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7:
[i]"The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments." |
|
"to try ALL Impeachments." A complete sentence used to express one thing. So, if the Senate does not get to try it, how can it be a Impeachment?
|
|
|
|
williegoat
|
DEC 20, 08:49 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by Khw:
"to try ALL Impeachments." A complete sentence used to express one thing. So, if the Senate does not get to try it, how can it be a Impeachment? |
|
The impeachment must exist, before it can be tried.
The House creates the impeachment, then sends it to the Senate for a trial.
It is just the way I read it, and more learned people than me say I am full of moose mud
|
|
|
|
randye
|
DEC 20, 10:22 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by williegoat:
The phrase "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment" means (to me) that the House creates the impeachment, which the Senate will try.
Of course I am just an old, retired truck driver.
|
|
It's even a bit more precise than that.
In law individual words have meaning; very definite meaning.
The word *shall* is an imperative, as distinct from the words, "may" , "can" or "should".
Similarly, the word *will* is also an imperative.
Shall or will means that an act MUST be performed. It isn't optional or discretionary.
Articles of impeachment from the House of Representatives carry no legal "teeth", in that, by themselves they have no force of law to compel or punish the individual against whom the articles have been approved.
The trial on the articles filed by the House TO the Senate is of course the sole provenance of the Senate as is the acquittal or guilt decision and any punishment.
House Dems are not happy with that part of the U.S. Constitution and now are seeking to also control how the upper chamber does it's separate business.[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-20-2019).]
|
|
|
|
Rickady88GT
|
DEC 20, 11:15 PM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by williegoat:
The impeachment must exist, before it can be tried.
The House creates the impeachment, then sends it to the Senate for a trial.
It is just the way I read it, and more learned people than me say I am full of moose mud |
|
I think that the House does the "fact finding and investigation." Then votes on drafting up a list of "high crimes and misdemeanors" and sends that on the Senate for the trial. Without a trial, the House only accuses the President of High crimes and misdemeanors and threatens the President with an impeachment.
|
|
|
|
blackrams
|
DEC 21, 04:26 AM
|
|
Several Constitutional scholars have indicated that until the "accused" has been convicted by the Senate, the "accused" is only charged, the act of impeachment occurs when the Senate finds fault and impeaches the accused.
But, I would counter that half this country believes President has been impeached simply because the House charged him with High Crimes and Misdemeanors, that IMHO is a result of a lack of knowledge by the failing educational system and a biased media constantly hitting us with crap.
Rams
|
|
|
|
williegoat
|
DEC 21, 05:20 AM
|
|
My opinion is based on the following definition (from: https://dictionary.law.com/...lt.aspx?selected=900 )
| quote | | 2) to charge a public official with a public crime for which the punishment is removal from office |
|
The Articles of Impeachment are a charge. The way I see it, impeachment does not require a trial or conviction, only a charge.
It is highly unlikely that he will be convicted and the senate could dismiss one or both charges without a trial. Regardless, history will still record that he has been impeached.
So to me, the question is: Are the Articles of Impeachment complete without being handed to the Senate? Do they exist on their own? I believe they do. Others do not.[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 12-21-2019).]
|
|
|
|
williegoat
|
DEC 21, 06:05 AM
|
|
| quote | Originally posted by randye:
It's even a bit more precise than that.
In law individual words have meaning; very definite meaning.
The word *shall* is an imperative, as distinct from the words, "may" , "can" or "should".
Similarly, the word *will* is also an imperative.
Shall or will means that an act MUST be performed. It isn't optional or discretionary.
Articles of impeachment from the House of Representatives carry no legal "teeth", in that, by themselves they have no force of law to compel or punish the individual against whom the articles have been approved.
The trial on the articles filed by the House TO the Senate is of course the sole provenance of the Senate as is the acquittal or guilt decision and any punishment.
House Dems are not happy with that part of the U.S. Constitution and now are seeking to also control how the upper chamber does it's separate business.
|
|
The phrase "shall have the sole power" does not require any action, it only grants power.
"Will" is my word, not the Constitution, and I changed will to may, here: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/124289-6.html#p201[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 12-21-2019).]
|
|
|
|
GTGeff
|
DEC 21, 06:19 AM
|
|
|
Is the President not entitled to a speedy trial?
|
|
|
|