A day that will live in infamy.... (Page 2/4)
MidEngineManiac DEC 07, 03:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by rinselberg:


"Stove piping."

(I misfortunately just discovered online that there is a particularly unsavory alternative meaning for that phrase.)




I misfortunately just discovered I could have lived quite comfortably without knowing that.

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 12-07-2020).]

maryjane DEC 08, 03:22 AM
From the time I was old enough to sit in my father's auto shop, I listened to first hand stories from WW2 vets. The war hadn't been over a dozen years yet. All of my uncles (& all now deceased) served in or during WW2 with the exception of 1 that was crippled from rheumatic fever. The stories were vivid. 6-7 years later I took a summer job and one of the dirt foremen had been in the Pacific and told how the sign over the Marine camp set up at Naha had a sign over the gate that said "Kill Japs, Kill Japs, Kill more Japs". He was proud of his service with the 6th Marine Div.

I remember my mother stating how mad they all were when they learned the Japs had bombed Pearl, and I thought she was going to break out in tears (and this was in the mid 60s) . It was not the 1st or last time I saw/heard that and it was not like things seem to be today. The anger was on a VERY personal level even thousands of miles from Hawaii. In the early 70s, when Datsuns and a few other foreign cars started showing up in the US more and more, my father absolutely refused to even allow one to be looked at in his shop no matter how good a friend may have bought it. He had some pretty harsh words to someone that drove a VW beetle in one day and one of the rare occassions I heard him cuss. I have never driven much less bought a foreign brand vehicle or tractor except a Leyland, made in GB. I never will.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-08-2020).]

82-T/A [At Work] DEC 08, 08:41 AM

quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

It was not the 1st or last time I saw/heard that and it was not like things seem to be today. The anger was on a VERY personal level even thousands of miles from Hawaii.





Disagree... this is the /exact/ same hatred and anger that many of us had (including myself) after 9/11. Why do you think it was so easy to justify sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan? The United States wanted blood. I totally supported it too, as did most average citizens in the country. Time heals... big difference is that the Japanese were motivated by a different ideology than the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In Japan, world domination was driven by the desires of the king, for which the Japanese society revolved around. They used propaganda to help gain support (when needed) to continue the fight. After the war... the country's new democratic society turned into what it is today, which is a society that anyone would be proud to be a part of.

We had that same anger after 9/11... I know I did. And I personally harbored a lot of resentment towards people who were Muslim for many years after that. I don't think I ever outwardly showed it... but it was something I'd never cared about previously. But I hated Islam, outright hated it... and it took me many years to come to terms with my biases and my hatred towards Muslims. In Afghanistan... they were driven by religious ideology... not by any kind of national pride. The entire region is meaningless to them. They live by a society where their faith and allegiance belongs to their ancestral tribe. Just like it was in the movie Lawrence of Arabia. The country lines that were drawn by the British over 100 years ago means absolutely nothing to them. Afghans do not have pride in the concept of "Afghanistan" because they do not even see themselves as Afghans. Obviously... time changes things, and the younger generation, especially those in cities like Kabul and Kandahar, have some growing pride... or at least an affiliation to being "Afghan." But... that's only because we've been there for nearly 20 years. The families, the extended families, and pretty much the entire rural and suburban populations of Afghanistan could care less.
rinselberg DEC 08, 09:04 AM
Monday, December 7, 2020: MSNBC anchor Brian Williams started "The 11th Hour" with a reminder that it was "Pearl Harbor Day."

"The 11th Hour" is aired Mondays through Fridays starting at 11:00 pm Eastern Time.

I also saw a small report about it (Pearl Harbor) on the front page (more or less) of NBC News online. I say front page "more or less" because scrolling (as one does online) is not quite the same as turning the page of a (literal) newspaper. The article about Pearl Harbor was up near the top, so minimal scrolling to see it. Maybe not even any scrolling whatsoever. It was that close to the top.

(Getting back to how this forum topic was started.)

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-08-2020).]

sourmash DEC 08, 09:33 AM
point 2) won't apply to most people here, because we're old and in a very obscure car cult.

1) It was a long time ago and most of the participants are gone.
2) For the past 20 years people haven't grown up with one way propaganda shoved at them. They can instantly find documentation and documentaries illustrating how there was advanced notice of the attack and how Roosevelt goaded the Japanese to attack as a means to dupe the Americans into another European war, while he was reelected on a promise not to send Americans into another one.

3) More and more people of all ages realize WWII as the beginning of the end for White domination of the globe and for individual freedoms for all people as White led Western nations began their slide toward governmental tyranny that today is completing it's final phase. WWII set the course for the state of our nations today. Europe got tyranny it first and only the Bill of Rights has allowed the USA to dog paddle as long as it has.
rinselberg DEC 08, 10:22 AM
Manchuria.

There is (I believe) a substantial amount of historical evidence that could be used to argue that the key to separating the Japanese from the other Axis powers--Germany, first and foremost of course--was Manchuria. If the Japanese could have been accommodated to a degree where Japan would have benefited from the natural resources of Manchuria (coal; iron ore; a large, resident population of prospective industrial workers, as memory serves me) without "having it all" at the total expense of the Manchurians themselves, that would have set a course where Japan would likely not have gone so totally totalitarian and embarked on the larger geographic conquests across mainland China and Southeast Asia that brought the Japanese to the point of attacking the U.S. at Pearl Harbor and in the Philippines.

I think it might have been possible to accommodate the Japanese on Manchuria, if the U.S. had been more proactive and more "engaged" (to use a much more recent word) on the international stage in the years between WW1 and WW2.

In other words, "If pigs had wings..."

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-08-2020).]

sourmash DEC 08, 10:36 AM
Good points.
Roosevelt and his regime (as a part of Churchill's directive to get the US into the war that England started) produced a list of actions that would provoke the Japanese into attacking with the end goal to convince the battle-weary American population to support yet another foreign war. And here we are. The communists won the war on the day that Japan attacked as it freed the USSR Allies in the East to go to their Western front to fight Germany.

There is evidence that the Japanese fleet was tracked across the Pacific and the info was submitted on December 4th. All the carriers were out of port on that day. There's more but people will be long dead before history allows it to become common knowledge.
maryjane DEC 08, 12:16 PM

quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Disagree... this is the /exact/ same hatred and anger that many of us had (including myself) after 9/11. Why do you think it was so easy to justify sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan? The United States wanted blood. I totally supported it too, as did most average citizens in the country. Time heals... big difference is that the Japanese were motivated by a different ideology than the Taliban and Al Qaeda. In Japan, world domination was driven by the desires of the king, for which the Japanese society revolved around. They used propaganda to help gain support (when needed) to continue the fight. After the war... the country's new democratic society turned into what it is today, which is a society that anyone would be proud to be a part of.

We had that same anger after 9/11... I know I did. And I personally harbored a lot of resentment towards people who were Muslim for many years after that. I don't think I ever outwardly showed it... but it was something I'd never cared about previously. But I hated Islam, outright hated it... and it took me many years to come to terms with my biases and my hatred towards Muslims. In Afghanistan... they were driven by religious ideology... not by any kind of national pride. The entire region is meaningless to them. They live by a society where their faith and allegiance belongs to their ancestral tribe. Just like it was in the movie Lawrence of Arabia. The country lines that were drawn by the British over 100 years ago means absolutely nothing to them. Afghans do not have pride in the concept of "Afghanistan" because they do not even see themselves as Afghans. Obviously... time changes things, and the younger generation, especially those in cities like Kabul and Kandahar, have some growing pride... or at least an affiliation to being "Afghan." But... that's only because we've been there for nearly 20 years. The families, the extended families, and pretty much the entire rural and suburban populations of Afghanistan could care less.


I said "today" which is Dec 8 2020.
Much of the anger of 9/11 has seemingly dissipated for whatever reason and it has been for a number of years now. Even on the 10 yr anniversary, there was very little said about it and things were already being 'forgotten' by way too many. The conversation I had with my mother regrding Pearl Harbor was probably when I was around 10-12 yrs old, maybe a little older. (I was born in '50) so it would have been close to 20 yrs since Pearl Harbor and the anger and resentment in my area was still very much evident.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-08-2020).]

sourmash DEC 08, 01:25 PM
Interesting point about 9-11-01 is that the day before Donald Rumsfeld had a press release stating the Pentagon can not account for up to 2.3 trillion dollars of spending.

The next day the Pentagon was struck and I've read it was the offices holding any trail of that money. Didn't matter. We all forgot it.
Larry Silverstein sued to collect double on the WTC claiming2 different attacks, and won.
Jake_Dragon DEC 08, 01:33 PM
Face it social media and cable "news" the USA is the world bad guys.
Mostly because we wont do anything about it.

Mostly

I see a lot of posts about how ****ed up the US is and how we bombed Japan, if you even respond with the attack at Pearl Harbor some vegetable munching mouth breather is going to fire back that you care more about boats than people.
That is where I usually leave them with a **** you that's why. You can't fix it.