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| A specific hypothetical Covid vaccine question (Page 2/5) |
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maryjane
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DEC 03, 02:54 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by theogre:
"Now that the results of these trials are coming in and looking very good, do we, as a thankful nation owe it to the 1/2 that got the placebo to ensure they get the real deal among the first folks that receive the mass immunizations?"
You owe them Nothing. People got the placebo may have gotten lucky months or more later.
I've been thru many studies and won't do drug and other tests no matter if they pay you or not.
Why?
1. Most studies including drug and other med studies have "fine print" in the contract etc. that often say you're on your own if have major problems. Most people never read before signing.
Most studies I've taken have about same risk as mowing grass and "normal" things people do anyway even if I'm in safety gear to do them. Several have me in harness similar roofers and other hanging off small cranes or beam tied to ceiling.
I get flu shot and others but Not in a hurry getting any New vaccine by any maker. I'll wait to see the Real results of 10's of Thousands and month later at minimum.
Many of health staff and others won't take a rush FDA approval for anything because many FDA approvals even done the "slow way" have big problems. Like Many Dr's won't proscribe Lyrica now because so many side effects, allergic reactions and worse then you have to get off the drug having more issues.
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I have great difficulty getting my mind around those placebo folks wanting to "wait to see the Real results of 10's of Thousands and month later at minimum."
I doubt they were of a risk aversion mindset to begin with and probably aren't going to be when the vaccines come available.
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blackrams
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DEC 03, 05:44 AM
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An interesting question... 
Edited: After putting some thought into this, I do believe those “guinea pigs” should be allowed some “line cutting” opportunities but , I doubt most would take advantage of it. Personally, I’d wait until others with greater needs than myself. But, I will eventually get the vaccination when my turn comes.
Health care workers (those frequently exposed), the elderly and those with weaker immune systems should be first inline.
Rams[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 12-03-2020).]
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PK
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DEC 03, 09:06 AM
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Hello MJ,
I have some very outdated experience in this area of study.
Yes I think it would be a thoughtful "thank you" to the study population that got placebo. Owed, maybe not unless written in to the protocol...but probably the right thing to do. I know that this is in the protocol for one of the studies (probably Oxford one).
It may be a little more complicated, as subjects are normally monitored after a study is unblinded for further data and health monitoring. Once you have jabbed all of the placebos with vaccine you have lost your control group for any further study.
Cheers
PK
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Monkeyman
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DEC 03, 09:10 AM
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I think they should have the opportunity to get the vaccine whenever they'd like. I understand they signed waivers and maybe got paid to take part in the guinea pig olympics but they were still willing to take big risks. Front line workers, elderly first. Test subjects (who got the placebo) 2nd, high risk folks (such as myself) next then the masses.
Good question.
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Zeb
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DEC 03, 09:36 AM
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Interesting question.
Were the trial volunteers, in reality, trying to "line cut" by volunteering for the trial? They are plainly not worried about the vaccine, and more worried about the virus. So half got the placebo instead of the real thing. They were told their odds were 50-50, so they have no right to complain. Now they're being asked to sign a consent form asking them to wait two years for the real vaccine? And your answer is "I am owed that vaccine."?
No. No, you're not owed anything. That's what "volunteer" means. Whether you volunteered for altruistic or selfish reasons, you volunteered. So don't sign the form. Quit the trial. Nobody's going to jail over this. It looks like the lady wanted to go to the front of the line. She was offered a 50-50 chance of getting there, and lost. Now, like Hudini, she's peeved. I've no sympathy for her. Get in line with the rest of us.
Now, Don, you are the kind of person who will volunteer because it's the right thing to do. But you're honest enough to know that you may get the short end of the stick, and accept that risk. You'd only expect what you were promised on the paper you signed. That's what volunteer means.
It also bothers me that we're, again, expanding the definition of "hero" to include these people.
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sourmash
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DEC 03, 10:00 AM
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| quote | [B]
I wouldn't believe the hype of the covid-19 vaccine. |
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My reply was my answer. I reject a percentage of the reports that it's effective.
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maryjane
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DEC 03, 01:03 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Zeb:
Interesting question.
Were the trial volunteers, in reality, trying to "line cut" by volunteering for the trial? They are plainly not worried about the vaccine, and more worried about the virus. So half got the placebo instead of the real thing. They were told their odds were 50-50, so they have no right to complain. Now they're being asked to sign a consent form asking them to wait two years for the real vaccine? And your answer is "I am owed that vaccine."?
No. No, you're not owed anything. That's what "volunteer" means. Whether you volunteered for altruistic or selfish reasons, you volunteered. So don't sign the form. Quit the trial. Nobody's going to jail over this. It looks like the lady wanted to go to the front of the line. She was offered a 50-50 chance of getting there, and lost. Now, like Hudini, she's peeved. I've no sympathy for her. Get in line with the rest of us.
Now, Don, you are the kind of person who will volunteer because it's the right thing to do. But you're honest enough to know that you may get the short end of the stick, and accept that risk. You'd only expect what you were promised on the paper you signed. That's what volunteer means.
It also bothers me that we're, again, expanding the definition of "hero" to include these people. |
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I never really bothered much with the paperwork I had to sign anywhere.
I'm of the opinion, that the medical frontline workers and 1st responders, AND that .16% of our adult population that volunteered to step up and take the risk that so many others were afraid to, are owed something more than what a contract may stipulate., whether they expect it or not.
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Boondawg
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DEC 03, 01:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Zeb:
Interesting question.
Were the trial volunteers, in reality, trying to "line cut" by volunteering for the trial? They are plainly not worried about the vaccine, and more worried about the virus. So half got the placebo instead of the real thing. They were told their odds were 50-50, so they have no right to complain. Now they're being asked to sign a consent form asking them to wait two years for the real vaccine? And your answer is "I am owed that vaccine."?
No. No, you're not owed anything. That's what "volunteer" means. Whether you volunteered for altruistic or selfish reasons, you volunteered. So don't sign the form. Quit the trial. Nobody's going to jail over this. It looks like the lady wanted to go to the front of the line. She was offered a 50-50 chance of getting there, and lost. Now, like Hudini, she's peeved. I've no sympathy for her. Get in line with the rest of us.
Now, Don, you are the kind of person who will volunteer because it's the right thing to do. But you're honest enough to know that you may get the short end of the stick, and accept that risk. You'd only expect what you were promised on the paper you signed. That's what volunteer means.
It also bothers me that we're, again, expanding the definition of "hero" to include these people. |
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I really like this post.
The liberal in me might find it a bit cold-hearted, but the conservative in me definitely recognizes the truth of it.
That being said, it would be a nice gesture to offer it to them in some kind of expedited manner.
On a side note: I have never gotten a flu shot in my life.
It's not that I don't believe in their effectiveness, I have just been programmed (raised) to "tuff it out".
So I don't know exactly how I expect that programming to just simply disappear this time around.
Will I take the shot?
If anyone should know the answer to that question shouldn't that be me?
Because I have absolutely no idea if i'm going to or not.
I hope they (DeepState, Democrats, The Machine, whatever) make us*.
Save me from throwing a fit defending a belief (anti-whatever) I don't even necessarily believe in. 
*relax.
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Patrick
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DEC 03, 02:26 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Zeb:
Now they're being asked to sign a consent form asking them to wait two years for the real vaccine?
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I guess I'm a little puzzled why this wouldn't have all been agreed upon to prior to the testing. These people already all signed consent forms at the start of the trial. Did the researchers bang their foreheads with the palms of their hands after the testing was done when they realized... "Damn, the volunteers who got the placebo now need to wait two years for the real thing, otherwise our trial is not 100% kosher. Get them to sign another waiver!" This would seem like one hell of an oversight. 
If this potential two year wait wasn't made clear to every volunteer from the get-go, then that's on the researchers, not the volunteers. And if it was made clear, then I'd say that the volunteers who received the placebo should not receive any special consideration to jump the cue if they now refuse to wait the two years as part of the study.
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maryjane
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DEC 03, 02:59 PM
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