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| Attack on my software forum - reason PFF was closed for a while (Page 12/19) |
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AJ7
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FEB 09, 09:39 AM
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exactly, how do you know he is really 16?, and that letter doesnt sound like something a 16 year old would write..
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FierOmar
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FEB 09, 09:41 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by fierobear:
You should consider a class action, or name all the parties who did it, and be sure that RFT and it's owner(s) and moderator(s) are included. It's time these poor excuses for human beings PAY for their bullshit. |
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First, forget the class action. A class action is typically used to prosecute a the claims of a large group of plaintiffs, all of whom have suffered similar damages. While I and others on this fourm may have been inconvenienced, I personally would not be looking for damages. Besides, my damages, if any, would likely be significantly different than Cliff's. Before proceeding as a class action, most states require that the class be certified (a court process whereby the group of plaintiffs is identified and approved).
As far as naming all possible defendants. sometimes this isn't the best strategy because it tends to polarize potential witnesses (e.g. a witness who might otherwise be favorable to the plaintiff will not likely be willing to volunteer information if he is a named defendiant). In addition, IMHO it can weaken a case to name defendants who are only tangetially involved.
As far as naming RFT as a named defendant, I would want to have more information before making that decision. In any event, to the extent that RFT as an entity were involved, and a proper defendant, if done properly, the complaint can be amended to name RFT at a later date. Alternatively, it might be appropriate to conduct some further investigation prior to commencing the legal action.
The fact that certain perpetrators are (or may be) minors might affect a criminal prosecution, but has no bearing on the right to bring a civil action. However, don't use the threat of criminal prosecution, or a promise to refrain from such prosecution as consideration for a civil settlement... it's called extortion.
Since the participants seem to be scattered among several states, Cliff has the opportunity to bring suit in one of several different areas. It may be advantageous to examine the various laws in each state to determine the best venue. On the other hand, it will also make finding an appropriate attorney a little easier since he can choose from from the pool of attorneys in several different locations.
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FierOmar[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 02-09-2007).]
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topcat
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FEB 09, 09:42 AM
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| quote | Subject: Mr. Pennock, I want to apologize
Mr. Pennock I want to apologize for a huge mistake I made on my part. I was one of the users who spammed your other forum (wildhorsey69) and at the time I honestly was not taking into consideration the harm that it would cause to you. But I'm going to stand up for what I did and that I realize that I created a lot of issues for you and your business. I'm deeply sorry for this whole thing, and I didn't realize that it was a business forum, which was also my fault. But I did not understand the consequences of my actions before I acted. I am 16 years old and I really don't know what to do about the situation I have got myself into. I feel the right thing to do is to stand up and take responsibility for my actions. I'm willing to help out in any way that I can.
My deepest apologies,
Randy P--------- |
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He is old enough to surf the net and make really vile comments on a business support forum, so he is old enough to face the consequences. Maybe this can be one of those tough life lessons that molds him into a more responsible human and not a zit on the face of society.
In other words, I would let the courts decide on what to do with him based on his age. I'd press ahead. Apology accepted, but standing up to what's coming includes answering to your behavior to the courts.
If he walks with no reprecussions, what did he really learn? Send an email with an apology, sound sincere, and play the age card, and I can get away with it.
Or... let him answer to a court, and maybe he can really see that there are real consequences to bad behavior. It is not you wrecking his life by going forward... who knows, he might have done this sort of thing before, or he might be a familiar face to the courts.[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 02-09-2007).]
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FierOmar
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FEB 09, 09:57 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere:
Cliff,
Get a layer first....that is the number one step to getting this all taken care of.
Matter of fact you can contact a company called "Pre Paid Legal Services Inc." 1-800-654-7757
They are a massive company with law firms all over the world.
The service has a small monthly fee ($36.00) and you have a layer on call whenever you need them.
And yes you can use the service as soon as you sign up.
They are a great company and I have been with them for years.
They give you true legal freedom.
Just a thought 
I have some money here to help you also. Just tell me where to send it.
thanks Cliff....for everything |
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Well, while I might agree that PrePaid Legal Services does provide access to a lawyar, there are quite a few limitations. Generally, they will defend you (up to a specified number of hours) for the modest amount charged by the plan. Beyond that, the attorneys will expect you to pay their hourly fee. The prosecution of legal actions is not included in their plan... at least not for the basic fee.
I have seen the pitch given by a PPL's independent sales associates, touting the high quality of legal services by the attorneys who provide services as part of the plan. Most of these sales associates have no clue what they are talking about... they just repeat what they have been told. Based on my personal assessment of their legal skills, I would rate PPL's attorneys in my area as average at best with respect to their ability to defend litigation. I can't imagine that they would be significantly better on the plaintiff's side.
Don't misunderstand... PPL has a place, and if used properly can be a worthwhile product. It just isn't anywhere near as great as the sales staff would have you beieve.
BTW, PPL is not a massive company with law firms all over the world (or country). They simply contract with a number of law firms to provide legal services to participants in their legal services plan.
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FierOmar[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 02-09-2007).]
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Arns85GT
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FEB 09, 10:01 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Loki:
139.78.10.1 - Aaron2.hate - Oklahoma State University IP address. Report this to abuse@okstate.edu, or call them at 1-405-744-6301
72.241.77.168 - WildHorsey - Buckeye Cablevision Inc. (toledo OH) Report to abuse@buckeye-express.com, phone number is 1-419-724-3278
71.181.143.55 - product1620 - Verizon Internet Services, Inc (the running dogs of Satan) - report to abuse@verizon.net, phone number 1-214-513-6711 |
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Good stuff Loki
Arn
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Oreif
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FEB 09, 10:31 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by topcat:
He is old enough to surf the net and make really vile comments on a business support forum, so he is old enough to face the consequences. Maybe this can be one of those tough life lessons that molds him into a more responsible human and not a zit on the face of society.
In other words, I would let the courts decide on what to do with him based on his age. I'd press ahead. Apology accepted, but standing up to what's coming includes answering to your behavior to the courts.
If he walks with no reprecussions, what did he really learn? Send an email with an apology, sound sincere, and play the age card, and I can get away with it.
Or... let him answer to a court, and maybe he can really see that there are real consequences to bad behavior. It is not you wrecking his life by going forward... who knows, he might have done this sort of thing before, or he might be a familiar face to the courts.
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Although Aaron may have goaded them into assisting with the spamming, (mob mentality) they are still responsible for their actions.
In terms of Randy P. it does appear he has no problem with accepting responsibility for his actions and is willing to help out.
I would have to agree with topcat that more than just an apology is warranted. The good news is, you now have a witness who can testify as to what happened. If he helps in the prosecution of the others, the judge will most likely go easier on him in terms of punishment, but he will still receive real consequences for his actions. He most likely will get some kind of probation and with his age it maybe removed from his record when he turns 18. This will stress the point of what he has done was very wrong and most likely will not affect his life when he gets older.
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dizmon_85GT
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FEB 09, 10:57 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Oreif:
The good news is, you now have a witness who can testify as to what happened.
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Good point Oreif!! I believe with a little pressure from the law and he will squeal like a pig and the rest will go down hard.
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Black88GT
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FEB 09, 11:15 AM
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Hmm. After reading through all of this I have to wonder exactly - what criminal act took place? Because, afterall, a criminal act IS required for criminal prosecution (not sure how many understand that after all of the class action lawsuit talk, lol). Is spamming a forum a criminal act? You might be able to try and classify it as some kind of malicious use of a computer but those laws are designed for hacking.
Assuming there is a criminal act, which is a mighty big assumption at this point, you'll have to file charges. Then you'll have to convince a prosecutor there is enough evidence to get a conviction, good luck there. Most likely the charges would be dismissed. You think a prosecutor is going to go through all this getting out of state witnesses, dealing with guys from other countries, for what? Spamming an internet forum? Get real people. To say they have bigger fish to fry would be the understatement of the year.
The only type of recourse would be in the civil courts. This would be the only realistic way of inflicting any kind of real "damages" to the perpetrators. In all honesty though most lawyers wouldn't touch the case because there is nothing to go after. Homeless people don't get sued, but business owners and CEO's do all the time. Catch my drift? Even if you do have a case, where you would have to prove damages, there's nothing in it for John Q. Attorney.
With a minor then you are really getting sticky because it would be his parents that would deal with it, and many states have laws on how much monetary damage a parent can be held liable for their child/dependent's actions. In Maryland its 10 grand. Not sure what other states are.
Either way you are looking at dealing with 3 different lawyers from 3 different states going after a few thousand bucks.
I think the best Cliff could hope for is getting Aaron fired or if he ponied up the cash getting a lawyer to make him spend money on a lawyer on a civil lawsuit. But I am telling you right now no lawyer will take the case without getting $ up front because they know he doesn't have a lot of money therefore they won't make a lot of money. Might as well forget about the minor.[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 02-09-2007).]
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Cliff Pennock
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FEB 09, 11:25 AM
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I just wanted to thank everybody again for all your help in this matter. I receive tons of emails and PM's and I wish I could answer them all. So if I don't answer your email and PM, it's not because I haven't read it or don't appreciate your help, it's because I don't have the time (yet) to answer them.
[Edited by Cliff Pennock: "Hey, did I accidently choose a Thumbs-Down icon for this post? I meant a Thumbs-Up of course!"]
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Cliff Pennock
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FEB 09, 11:40 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Black88GT:
Hmm. After reading through all of this I have to wonder exactly - what criminal act took place? Because, afterall, a criminal act IS required for criminal prosecution (not sure how many understand that after all of the class action lawsuit talk, lol). Is spamming a forum a criminal act? You might be able to try and classify it as some kind of malicious use of a computer but those laws are designed for hacking. |
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I guess you haven't read "all of this" then. If indeed all that was done was "spamming", then yes, all I could hope for is a slap on the wrist for Aaron from his employer. And guess what? If all they did was that, I would have probably left it at that.
However, he has done much more than that. He has made claims to my clients that the software I offered was his and not mine and that I am a fraud. That's both libel and a violation of copyright laws. Had he just posted a single message on my forum, then he could have said it was just him goofing off a bit. But he has PM'd this message to every single member on that forum - something that took him a few hours to do. Besides the fact he just made over a hundred persons a witness to his actions, this also proofs intent. Unless he pleads insanity, he can't just throw this on a "spur of the moment" thing. He also rallied a few others - I have several witnesses to this fact. Again this proofs intent.
So nice try, but this is waaaaaaay beyond some kids "goofing off".
And if you think what they have done is trivial, then perhaps you should get your head out of your ---. They knowingly and willingly tried to destroy my business and my credibility towards my customers. The extent of the damage done isn't clear to me yet - but that it's going to hurt me financially is clear. This is after all my livelihood. This is what pays my bills. I'm not some kind of 20 year old punk kid who is about to loose his job as a Parking Officer at some University. I'm a 42-year old with a wife and a kid with real bills to pay and real mouths to feed. If you think I should simply laugh it off then you need a reality check.
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