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Optimal Suspension for Comfort & Handling (Page 2/4) |
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82-T/A [At Work]
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FEB 05, 08:10 PM
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quote | Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT:Yes pretty much, rubber for the dogbone (being a manual, could probably do poly, but there isn't much of a reason to, other then looking better) rubber in front, poly for cradle, your choice of rubber or poly for rear control arms, rubber will be gentler (but not as much of a different as in the front, as there is more mass in the rear to dampen the vibrations), but poly will reduce the squirrely back end, I know that for a fact because my Fiero when I got it handled just like my dad's (very loose in the back, can feel everything shifting as one turns, and I have basically upgraded everything while my dad's has stayed the same, so I can basically compare mine now to what it was, the poly rear control arm bushings helped the squirellyness a lot, even with rubber cradle mounts, I've since installed the metal cradle mounts, but haven't tested, as it's winter, but that was the last part that was moving unpredictably in turns/rough surfaces, poly should be good for that to keep vibrations super low but have it handle better. The difference between mine that still had original cradle bushings and my dad's is very different, to the point where when I last drive his (Christmas Eve) I felt I needed to take corners slower, and the car was occasionally the limit instead of the speed signs.
Like I said the rear is really really easy to change, so you can use poly first, then if you don't like it, can use rubber later, but if you use poly in the control arms, you must wrap the inner metal sleeve with a single layer of Teflon tape, don't know why it works, only that it does work, my dad's has only the front lower poly, without the Teflon tape, and it squeaked really badly right from the first day with those bushings, all my poly front bushings with the Teflon tape have had 13,000 hard km on them, in the rain, in the heat, and have had no real squeaks (one small small squeak when in the rain, probably just a small part that was missing Teflon tape) |
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Thanks 85... now, when you say Teflon tape... are you just talking about the stuff I use on pipe threads? Do you just wrap the entire poly core with this tape before you install it. Or are you talking about some kind of larger teflon tape that you buy that's already the size of the bushing?
Thanks!!!
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1985 Fiero GT
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FEB 05, 10:00 PM
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quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Thanks 85... now, when you say Teflon tape... are you just talking about the stuff I use on pipe threads? Do you just wrap the entire poly core with this tape before you install it. Or are you talking about some kind of larger teflon tape that you buy that's already the size of the bushing?
Thanks!!! |
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Yes, the common type used on pipe fittings, poly bushings come with the poly bushings itself and the metal tube that goes inside, wrap the metal tube in a spiral of Teflon tape extending it around the ends of the tube, grease it up with the sticky grease included with the bushings, and twist the metal core into the bushing, if you twist it and do it right, it will go in smoothly without the Teflon tape bunching up much, the tolerances are tight, so the tape cannot overlap itself, it doesn't have to cover 100% of the surface of the metal, leave like a half a mm gap between layers as it spirals around the metal tube. When twisting it in, twist it opposite to the direction of the Teflon tape, as if you are using a drill bit or screw in reverse, that way the tape won't bunch up. I know there's a thread on here somewhere, and probably a YouTube video too, but hopefully I explained it well enough.
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1985 Fiero GT
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FEB 05, 10:07 PM
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The goal is to get the metal insert to be able to turn freely (figuratively speaking) as the suspension is manipulated, with the poly part not moving at all in the outer shell, the Teflon tape along with the Teflon based grease make it really slick and durable, more then just the grease alone. You likely need grease to get the poly bushing into the outer shell, but the friction will be more there then the inner sleeve, thus functioning as intended. I've done 12 bushings like this, 1st try, no failure after 13,000 km since last April. Worst part is probably trying to get that grease off my hands! And you don't need to grease the inner tube before putting the Teflon tape on, order is: inner metal tube, Teflon tape, grease, poly bushing, grease, outer bushing shell, control arm.
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cvxjet
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FEB 05, 10:54 PM
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I converted my 85 SE V6 to poly bushings back in 2008.....squeeked badly, and a lot of impact/vibration...converted it back to (new) rubber bushings- much better!
A friend of mine races a 1966 Mustang w/Roush racing engine (750 hp) and 310 mm wide tires against modified Z06s and Vipers...He has a shop where he manufatures custom A-arms and suspensions for old Mustangs.
He stopped selling poly bushings because they did not improve handling much but did transmit impacts and cause squeeking...and those poly bushings last only a short time before they start deflecting;
![](https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/cvxjet/Poly_Deflect.bmp) [This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 02-06-2024).]
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theogre
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FEB 06, 03:36 PM
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quote | Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: Ws6 is just the performance suspension package, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks, stiffer bushings, offered in every year, 84se has ws6, as do all year GTs, in 1988 ws6 meant more because it was an entirely different suspension altogether, but all other years has ws6 as an option on the rpo code sheet |
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Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option.
Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts.
Example: My "Sport" has same duke w/ "highway" gearing AT as others but OE stiff springs & will rattle your teeth very often. Got "worse" rebuilding suspension w/ Moog Bushings & Gabriel "Premium" Gas shocks/struts. Got even "worse" by switching 14" to 15" wheels because requires lower profile tires, 195/70-14 to 205/60-15. How bad can it be? Several Dash Cams I've use in it often trips the Recording Lock (to block normal deletion) hitting many bumps & that's hardest G setting in the menus. When the D-cam have smaller SD cards will fill the whole thing w/ locked videos fast requiring to manually deletion or reformatting in a few weeks.
I rarely drive the Fiero > 50 miles at 1 time even when force to drive by an old job so doesn't bother me much. But The Kid & most friends will soon Hate a Hard Ride like that. Worse if have to deal w/ many Speed Bumps etc because that will "Activate" any "road sensing" shocks & struts making the suspension way harder to the point many will think they "Bottom" the car but did not. Far Worse, because most can't tell if you "bottom" the car now... Will actually bottom out, likely sooner not later, & likely break things w/o noticing until leaving you stranded on the highway.
That's ignoring Duke w/ AT in Drive will "be a problem" at stop lights etc too for many people. Duke "Noise" & AT keeps the Dog bone in Compression that can shake the whole car. More so w/ Polly Bones & 87-88 single trans mount. See cave, Torque Strut
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1985 Fiero GT
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FEB 06, 05:23 PM
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quote | Originally posted by theogre:
Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option.
Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts.
Example: My "Sport" has same duke w/ "highway" gearing AT as others but OE stiff springs & will rattle your teeth very often. Got "worse" rebuilding suspension w/ Moog Bushings & Gabriel "Premium" Gas shocks/struts. Got even "worse" by switching 14" to 15" wheels because requires lower profile tires, 195/70-14 to 205/60-15. How bad can it be? Several Dash Cams I've use in it often trips the Recording Lock (to block normal deletion) hitting many bumps & that's hardest G setting in the menus. When the D-cam have smaller SD cards will fill the whole thing w/ locked videos fast requiring to manually deletion or reformatting in a few weeks.
I rarely drive the Fiero > 50 miles at 1 time even when force to drive by an old job so doesn't bother me much. But The Kid & most friends will soon Hate a Hard Ride like that. Worse if have to deal w/ many Speed Bumps etc because that will "Activate" any "road sensing" shocks & struts making the suspension way harder to the point many will think they "Bottom" the car but did not. Far Worse, because most can't tell if you "bottom" the car now... Will actually bottom out, likely sooner not later, & likely break things w/o noticing until leaving you stranded on the highway.
That's ignoring Duke w/ AT in Drive will "be a problem" at stop lights etc too for many people. Duke "Noise" & AT keeps the Dog bone in Compression that can shake the whole car. More so w/ Polly Bones & 87-88 single trans mount. See cave, Torque Strut |
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Normal driving on normal roads with new, old, or upgraded suspension components will not break anything, or cause it to wear any quicker, the Fiero is a stiff car to start with, that is the point, if you go over a speed bump at 80, and break something, that's your fault, not the cars, your description goes a little overboard on the ride quality, dash cams may not like it, but it is nothing to complain about unless you are above 40 and have osteoporosis. I would say that it is the opposite with young people, as every car they have been in is so smooth, that it makes the ride more unique and special. The subject of this post has a manual, so the dogbone doesn't matter, for "AJ" poly bushings are likely not wanted in the control arms, nor are kyb shocks, but Monroe shocks, new rubber bushings, and poly cradle/dogbone are going to give a good ride that will be enjoyable, without being jarring.
Edited for formatting.[This message has been edited by 1985 Fiero GT (edited 02-06-2024).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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FEB 07, 08:43 AM
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quote | Originally posted by cvxjet:I converted my 85 SE V6 to poly bushings back in 2008.....squeeked badly, and a lot of impact/vibration...converted it back to (new) rubber bushings- much better!
A friend of mine races a 1966 Mustang w/Roush racing engine (750 hp) and 310 mm wide tires against modified Z06s and Vipers...He has a shop where he manufatures custom A-arms and suspensions for old Mustangs.
He stopped selling poly bushings because they did not improve handling much but did transmit impacts and cause squeeking...and those poly bushings last only a short time before they start deflecting; |
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Yeah, that is pretty brutal... I will probably re-do my own suspension that I did 13 years ago when I eventually get my car into the garage. For my daughter, I think the ONLY things I'm going to use poly for is the cradle, and the rear control arms. As 85 GT said, they're easy enough to remove... but the squirrelly rear-end is something that always irked me about the 84-87 Fieros. I'm going to use new rubber on the end-links too...
quote | Originally posted by theogre:Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option.
Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts. |
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I view WS6 as a means of ensuring that I have the "better" suspension package. The only time I ever remember WS6 being considered a marketing thing, was on the 1998-2002 Pontiac TransAms where it would say "WS6 Equipped," on the rear bumper. But the other Pontiacs that I've had have also had WS6 on them, and it was never something that was really advertised. My 81 TransAm had the WS6 package, but outside of seeing it on the build sheet on top of the gas tank, I don't remember it ever being a marketing thing.
Funny though, 85 GT was right... I just looked at my daughter's RPO sticker... and guess what I see...
![](https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/82-T%252FA%2520%255BAt%2520Work%255D/WS6.jpg)
Ok... now this is odd... why does my daughter's car have two different sets of springs? Take a look... am I seeing what I'm seeing?
When I compare it to your (Ogre's page): https://web.archive.org/web...fierocave/rpo_id.htm
I see the following RPO codes:
![](https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/82-T%252FA%2520%255BAt%2520Work%255D/Springs-RPO.jpeg)
WS6 suspension package, which you guys see.
And then (per Ogre's page): 6xx LF Spring 7xx RF Spring 8xx LR Spring 9xx RR Spring
6JH = Stiffest (4) / Left Front 7JH = Stiffest (4) / Right Front 8YL = Stiff (3) / Left Rear 9YM = Stiffest (4) / Right Rear
Why is the left rear spring a different spring rate than all the other springs on the car? Is this to make the car more comfortable? I'm at a loss for understanding this. To add to this, if I bought a set of NYM springs off eBay, is it possible that one of them is also not exactly NYM? This is really weird...
quote | Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT:Normal driving on normal roads with new, old, or upgraded suspension components will not break anything, or cause it to wear any quicker, the Fiero is a stiff car to start with, that is the point, if you go over a speed bump at 80, and break something, that's your fault, not the cars, your description goes a little overboard on the ride quality, dash cams may not like it, but it is nothing to complain about unless you are above 40 and have osteoporosis. I would say that it is the opposite with young people, as every car they have been in is so smooth, that it makes the ride more unique and special. The subject of this post has a manual, so the dogbone doesn't matter, for "AJ" poly bushings are likely not wanted in the control arms, nor are kyb shocks, but Monroe shocks, new rubber bushings, and poly cradle/dogbone are going to give a good ride that will be enjoyable, without being jarring. |
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Yeah, it's very true... her experience with the car will be much different than it is for me at my age of 45 (no back problems or anything). When I was younger, I loved the feeling of a stiffer suspension. I did NOT like it though, even when I was 18/19 that... whenever I hit a pothole, that it felt like the car was falling into a pit. This was all after I installed the KYBs though... and it was with my Y99 suspension package (whatever springs those were). I'd compare it though, to the hardtop no-optioned 1985 Fiero GT 4-Speed that I owned (which was a quick as **** car)... had WS6 suspension, 4.10:1 final drive 4-Speed swapped in from an 84 2m4 SE, and had the heads decked (really because it had warped previously), which increased the compression to like 9.2:1. I think, if I recall, I bought it from either David Radabaugh, or Darrell Morse... and had it shipped down from Ohio. The thing was insanely quick off the line. If I dropped the clutch from a dead stop... it never actually gained traction... it would just do a burn-out indefinitely without ever applying the brake. It did this with brand new BFGoodrich T/A Comps. Anyway... the shocks were shot, but the springs were good. I remember hitting potholes, even drove over a curb and an entire bush (long story), and it wasn't jarring at all... it was a very smooth ride. The only issue of course was on cornering, the car would pitch over because the shocks were totally gone.
She doesn't know what she wants, because she's never driven a car. But I expect the ride for her to be high-sprung, but not jarring.
So I'll take everyone's advice... all rubber in the front. Poly in the rear control arms with Teflon tape. Poly cradle mounts, and rubber engine / stabilizer mounts.
Thanks!!!
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1985 Fiero GT
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FEB 07, 11:16 AM
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That's weird, my 85 gt has the correct rear springs, it definitely wouldn't have been done intentionally or for comfort, I'm guessing it's a typo/mistake somehow, I don't know how that got past Q.C. any springs you buy online should be normal, 4 correct springs, I'm baffled, is an 85, so it should have the same spring codes as mine, yet it doesn't. Weird. Yes y99 springs with even just front kyb shocks are not very good, on top of making the car ride about an inch lower after all these years, the ws6 springs with KYB still transmit a lot of "road feel" but the increased spring rate makes potholes manageable, I live in New Brunswick, in an area where the roads are not maintained (we literally had a place where they needed to install a bridge, because a flood cut a 50ft deep groove where the road was) and now we have a place where the road is sinking and had created a ramp, so if you go over it at the speed limit, your car is almost an airplane.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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FEB 07, 01:52 PM
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quote | Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT:
That's weird, my 85 gt has the correct rear springs, it definitely wouldn't have been done intentionally or for comfort, I'm guessing it's a typo/mistake somehow, I don't know how that got past Q.C. any springs you buy online should be normal, 4 correct springs, I'm baffled, is an 85, so it should have the same spring codes as mine, yet it doesn't. Weird. Yes y99 springs with even just front kyb shocks are not very good, on top of making the car ride about an inch lower after all these years, the ws6 springs with KYB still transmit a lot of "road feel" but the increased spring rate makes potholes manageable, I live in New Brunswick, in an area where the roads are not maintained (we literally had a place where they needed to install a bridge, because a flood cut a 50ft deep groove where the road was) and now we have a place where the road is sinking and had created a ramp, so if you go over it at the speed limit, your car is almost an airplane. |
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Ok, I'm glad to hear that... so I'm not crazy. Yeah... I find it totally odd too... I wonder if it's a typo or if it's legitimate. I wondered if maybe they did this because it's a 5-Speed and it's lighter on one side and doesn't need as much spring stiffness there? Who knows.
I just got my set of low mileage NYM springs from Arizona. No rust, 36k miles on them, I'll swap out both rear springs with the lower mileage ones. No loss there... at least I can be sure (for the most part) that the replacement springs will be a matched set... not to mention they have 100k fewer miles on them.
I'll leave the stock front springs, and just sand them down and paint them.
Thanks!!!
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1985 Fiero GT
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FEB 07, 03:01 PM
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quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Ok, I'm glad to hear that... so I'm not crazy. Yeah... I find it totally odd too... I wonder if it's a typo or if it's legitimate. I wondered if maybe they did this because it's a 5-Speed and it's lighter on one side and doesn't need as much spring stiffness there? Who knows.
I just got my set of low mileage NYM springs from Arizona. No rust, 36k miles on them, I'll swap out both rear springs with the lower mileage ones. No loss there... at least I can be sure (for the most part) that the replacement springs will be a matched set... not to mention they have 100k fewer miles on them.
I'll leave the stock front springs, and just sand them down and paint them.
Thanks!!! |
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Yeah, no problem, I'm not sure, but somewhere I recall reading or hearing that the springs are color coded somehow, like maybe a stripe of paint somewhere on them that corresponds to the spring code, I don't have any more information, but if both springs have a spot of paint that is the same, then it would probably just be a typo.
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