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| Installing the FAST EZ-EFI 2.0 Multi-Port Retro Kit in a 1987 Pontiac Fiero V6 (Page 4/8) |
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sleek fiero
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FEB 25, 08:50 PM
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82T/A [at work] I just thought I would touch base with you. thought you might use some of the info I have gathered installing my aftermarket ecu.I have lots of pic for my crank trigger and wheel and how I built my cam trigger out of my distributor. I have part numbers for knock sensors etc. I have done this procedure 3 times before I got the combination I am using now. Yes I now have sequential injection and I can map my ignition and fuel ratios. no need for cold start .Just let me know if you would like a little help .Sleek
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82-T/A [At Work]
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FEB 27, 09:31 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by claude dalpe:
So I really advise you to do with the Fast Ez-efi kit that will give you a correct setting for the use you want to make with your fiero
Don't give up and keep us posted |
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I definitely won't, and I appreciate it! There's a few features that allow me to tweak and adjust the settings for optimal performance. Once I get everything set-up, and properly running, then I'll start fiddling with that to eek out a bit more performance. For the most part, I'm just going to be happy with it running well, and being able to drive it with a newer and more simplified wiring harness.
| quote | Originally posted by Raydar:
I'm thinking those injectors will be fine. Wish I would have had those, as my 19s seemed to be just a bit large.
Your comment about springs just reminded me...
Be careful about lifters. Most people I've heard say to use the GM lifters (assuming they are still available). Several people on this forum had other "high performance" lifters to fail, and wipe out cam lobes in the process. And yeah... the GM lifters are more expensive.
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The 17lb injectors seemed perfect. I decided on these because I knew that the 3.4 in the Camaro/Firebird had 17lb injectors, but they were the different style ones (not the pintle ones). These were good high-quality injectors, and I figured I'm probably going to be putting out perhaps a little more (or possibly the same) as a stock 3.4 V6/6 with my 3.1 (possibly 3.2 if I do the math right) engine. So it would be an ideal amount of fuel.
I'm definitely concerned about the cam... so I'm going to need to make sure I have the right oil content during break-in.
| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Yeah, I was talking about the EZ-EFI 2.0.
It reads user-defined lookup tables, which are then mostly likely read by some human-written procedural program which then toggles the outputs as needed.
The idea of install, push a few buttons, and drive, is IMO a well-engineered marketing dream. One can fall for the marketing, or not...
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As mentioned, you can't teach a machine to learn anything if it's blind and without feedback. Perhaps eventually automotive ECUs can be self-tuning with AI, but not with the sensor complement of your powerplant. |
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I don't know how we got into AI here... I don't think I brought it up, but none of the ECMs we're talking about use any form of AI. The EZ-EFI 2.0 uses a modest form of machine learning, but I wouldn't even really call it machine learning, because it's just continually (automatically) refining a fuel map variance based on variables it gets from the sensors. So... not really machine learning. The MegaSquirt most definitely does not use any machine learning, it's strictly a decision-tree model that references a fuel map (which you've defined) in accordance with variables it gets from the sensors.
Either way, I appreciate the enthusiasm... I do, and I appreciate any help you've given me in the past, or will give me in the future. But I need to make it clear that my goals are not the same as yours. This system works well on a variety of engines. It's a turn-key system that optimizes to the best of its ability, the air/fuel management (with timing advance). This system, as it's built now, will never be able to fine-tune a system to the point where it knows exactly where to lean out a mixture for a little bit more horsepower at certain RPMs. That's not what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for something that I can get into, start the car, and drive it, and drive it hard... and then put it away, and take it out a month later. I'm reliving my high-school years (this is my original car from high school). I'm not interested in getting an additional 6hp more at the expense of going to a dyno 4-5 times, having a custom tune made, and having to completely build my own wiring harness.
If Megasquirt sold a total replacement wiring harness, w/ an open-loop ECM that makes use of a heated O2 sensor and knock sensor that I can literally just swap out like I'm doing with the EZ-EFI 2.0... then I would buy it immediately. Matter of fact, if they had something like I just explained in the near future, I'll STILL probably buy it and stick it on the shelf for posterity and potentially using it in the future.
I've got way too much going on in my life... way too much. With what little time I have to spend on cars, I want it to be fun, not a pain in the ass. There was a time in my life when I spent every spare moment working on my cars (I had 9 and a golf cart at one point). Rebuilding engines, doing all kinds of stuff. I need to spend time with family. My daughter is going off to college in 4 years, and I need to make the most of those 4 years.
I know you believe that this system will simply fail... and I've wasted ~$1,500+. They would never build a system like this if that was the case. There are thousands of people who have successfully installed this system and have been VERY happy with it. As I think I will be too.
Again, I appreciate the past and future support...
| quote | Originally posted by sleek fiero:
Hi 82 T/A [at work] . Just a word about your cam. Yes that is a great grind. I have worked in the industry at an automotive machine shop reconditioning engines for years and here is my advice for your cam break in. Get yourself a tube of engine assembly lube or better yet a tube of Crane cam lube which is a molybdenum grease and use an ample amount on the cam and on the bottom of the new lifters. Also get a pan full of lucas High Zinc 10-30 for older cars and submerge your lifters pushrod end up. Take a pushrod and insert in end of lifter and push down multiple times until the lifter fills and you can't push it down anymore. This will prefill the lifters so they will not rattle on startup. Like wise use the lucas high zinc oil for engine breakin and keep using it for the life of your engine. Don't worry to much about your startup rpm as tou probably wont' have much control over idle speed at first but with the proper lube on your cam it should not gall on startup. Set your lifters to 0 clearance where with your fingers you can turn the pushrod freely . Then tighten 1/4 turn and your lifter will be set for street use. Some racers will not give the final 1/4 turn for a track car. You should check with Crane whether you can use your stock springs or get a matching performance set. Hope this info helps you and good luck. |
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FANTASTIC!!! Thank you... I will absolutely do this. This is exactly what I needed. I'm terrified of wiping out this cam... I don't even think I can get this grind anymore.
Quick question... I put this cam in storage... in an unairconditioned storage unit in Florida. It may have surface rust on it, will that be a problem? I wrapped it in wax paper, and sprayed the hell out of it with engine oil before I put it away. I assume it should still be OK? (I'll find out soon enough).
| quote | Originally posted by MarkS:
Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.
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Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?
Thanks!!!
| quote | Originally posted by ericjon262:
I'm very skeptical of "self learning" EFI systems, and "plug and play" systems that make big claims.
I haven't dug into this system in particular, but I would highly recommend checking with dyno tuners in the area and seeing if any of them are willing to mess with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the self learning functions left a ton of performance and drivability on the table.
The other thing you should do right now, before you take the car apart, is attempt to set a benchmark for the performance of the car as it sit right now. be it a dyno, dragstrip pass, 0-60 time, 20-80 time, whatever, do something to give a origin datapoint prior to the changes, that way after, you have a basis for comparison when you install the new system, and can verify you're at least meeting the original performance levels you had before you started. I would also try and record as many of the atmospheric conditions at the time you set these benchmarks, and try and do your after tests with as many of the variables similar that you can.
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This would be "sound advice," however, the car has been sitting in storage for 12 years. It had a few issues before I started swapping in a 5-Speed. It had loose torque-converter bolts (forgot to use locktite), and the engine fell flat at about 4,500 rpms. Like... almost no power above that. I think it's a combination of the fact that I didn't have the rotating assembly balanced before I put it together, and I'm thinking I wiped out a cam lobe. I'm planning on pulling the motor, taking it to a local machine shop to have the rotating assembly properly balanced, and having them install my Crane Cam. I just don't have the time to do any of that. I'm also going to send off my 17-lb injectors to be cleaned, and do a few other things. Car is in pretty good shape, but I didn't get to the engine bay before I put it in storage: https://www.pontiacperforma...et/car87FieroSE.html
Click the dash / gauge warning lights to see the work I've done. Note, I haven't really updated the site in a decade, so... some links and images will be broken when I converted from a Windows hosting to a Linux (case sensitivity in the file names).
| quote | Originally posted by maryjane:
Mission creep.... |
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The best kind!!!
| quote | Originally posted by sleek fiero:
82T/A [at work] I just thought I would touch base with you. thought you might use some of the info I have gathered installing my aftermarket ecu.I have lots of pic for my crank trigger and wheel and how I built my cam trigger out of my distributor. I have part numbers for knock sensors etc. I have done this procedure 3 times before I got the combination I am using now. Yes I now have sequential injection and I can map my ignition and fuel ratios. no need for cold start .Just let me know if you would like a little help .Sleek |
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Thanks Sleek! I had some back and forth with the engineers there, and they told me (I think like you said), that I can use my stock distributor. There's just one issue where I need to convert a positive 5v signal... they said it will work, but they don't recommend it because it can actually lead to frying the ECM. They said the most ideal thing to do would be to put an MSD box inline... but otherwise, the stock Fiero's distributor (and ignition control module), will still be used. I'll make a post in the next day or so when I have some time.
Thank you!!!
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MarkS
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FEB 27, 11:20 AM
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Originally posted by MarkS:
Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.
Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?
Thanks!!!
Well, I've done about 4 cam swaps over the past 5 years due to my multiple personalities, I go from cruising to bruising and back.  Honestly I've used the HyLift Johnson's (new production) & the TRW's without removing any valve springs and had no issues myself. It's the anecdotal things I've read across the different boards over the recent years (some here with that exact cam) that give me pause. As for GM lifters, looks like the GM 5234212 are discontinued but probably available other places in the market. I use the CompCams break in oil along with Joe Gibbs Racing Driven Assembly Grease. BTW, are you really still sitting on the BB Olds? I would have thought it might have found its way into something by now.  [This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 02-27-2023).]
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lou_dias
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FEB 27, 02:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by MarkS:
As for GM lifters, looks like the GM 5234212 are discontinued but probably available other places in the market.
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One of many reasons why I rebuild the roller-cam blocks instead of 2.8/3.1/3.4 blocks. I maintain the 'roller' hardware...and the stock 3X00 setup provides a mild cam upgrade as well. (.436/.436 with 1.6 rockers)[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-27-2023).]
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sleek fiero
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FEB 27, 02:22 PM
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82T/a. i THINK YOU ARE DEFINITLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK GETTING THE MACHINE SHOP TO BALANCE AND ASSEMBLE. as for your cam they can assess the rust or lack of and by the way your cam is still available. As for lifters , Crane ,Comp cams and Crower all have high quality lifters that they actually warranty when used with their cams. Being such a high lift cam I would get the springs Crane recommends for your cam. There would be nothing worse than wiping out your cam because of coil bind. Keep me posted . Sleek
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82-T/A [At Work]
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MAR 01, 07:43 AM
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Just a quick update, I've been talking back and forth with the tech, and I can use my stock distributor, and the stock ignition control module. Everything bolts right up. The ONLY issue that remains is that the distributor has an analog "ground" switching signal, and it needs to be converted into a positive switching signal. There's a couple of things I can do to rectify that, but the easiest turned out to be simply making use of an MSD 6EFI ignition box, which will convert the signal for me, and of course... also provide a multitude of benefits as well.
I should be getting the 6EFI in the mail today, and I will put together a diagram for the ignition wiring.
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La fiera
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MAR 01, 08:27 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by MarkS:
Agree, GM- the modern hydraulic flat tappet lifters are a constant source of controversy in the hot rod world, installation notes often say remove the inner valve springs before break in, figure this is their escape hatch if you don't & they fail. FWIW only, on my last cam swap in the 400, which was only a year or so ago, I used a set of NOS TRW lifters date coded to the early 80's, quality stuff back then. Worked out great WITHOUT removing the inner springs from the Edelbrock heads and the TRW instructions had nothing about removing valve springs. I believe VL94's were the TRW lifters from that time frame. "HyLift Johnson" are a decent modern lifter from my experience & others.
Do you think I really need to do this? Or can I set up the engine as I expect, and just go nuts with the zinc and assembly lube?
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I've never had a problem with lifters for decades. The key is to use the proper oil for the application. Too much zinc is also bad. Since you are invested in this spend some money and get a set of lifters with an oil jet at the face. I use them in all my engines and I use very high spring pressures and have never had a cam go flat. With this jet of oil directly on the cam lobe the mating surfaces are not dependent on splash oil from the crankshaft.
Another critical way is break in.
Get the best protection when starting the engine. You can get the moly dry lube at your local parts store. People don't know but long cranking will wipe out all the lubricant from the mating surfaces, the more protection you have the better.
We all are rooting for you!
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82-T/A [At Work]
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MAR 01, 09:12 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by sleek fiero:
82T/a. i THINK YOU ARE DEFINITLY ON THE RIGHT TRACK GETTING THE MACHINE SHOP TO BALANCE AND ASSEMBLE. as for your cam they can assess the rust or lack of and by the way your cam is still available. As for lifters , Crane ,Comp cams and Crower all have high quality lifters that they actually warranty when used with their cams. Being such a high lift cam I would get the springs Crane recommends for your cam. There would be nothing worse than wiping out your cam because of coil bind. Keep me posted . Sleek |
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Thanks! I'm going to start looking for a machine shop this month so I can drop my engine off. I'll reach out to Crane and see if they can give me the part numbers for those springs.
I really hope you stick around on Pennocks... you have a lot of experience and I know we can all benefit from it here!
| quote | Originally posted by La fiera:
I've never had a problem with lifters for decades. The key is to use the proper oil for the application. Too much zinc is also bad. Since you are invested in this spend some money and get a set of lifters with an oil jet at the face. I use them in all my engines and I use very high spring pressures and have never had a cam go flat. With this jet of oil directly on the cam lobe the mating surfaces are not dependent on splash oil from the crankshaft.
Another critical way is break in.
Get the best protection when starting the engine. You can get the moly dry lube at your local parts store. People don't know but long cranking will wipe out all the lubricant from the mating surfaces, the more protection you have the better.
We all are rooting for you!
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Those are FANTASTIC!!! I've never seen flat-tappet lifters like that.
Couple of questions, what effect does it have on oil pressure? Do you see any degradation at all in oil pressure, or is it unnoticeable? Also... when / if you've disassembled an engine with lifters like these, have you seen any improper wearing, like perhaps a scoring line along where the opening is?
Is there a specific name for these, or do you happen to have a part number for these for the Gen-1 V6/60?
Thank you! I will definitely use the dry-lube.
EDIT: I did some quick searches, and the only thing I see is a mention of Isky and Crower as having them. I've reached out to both, but I don't see anything on their website specifically, but I might be using the wrong terms. Do you know if they actually sell these for the V6/60, or if the V6/60 uses lifters that are also in say, the SBC?
Thanks![This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 03-01-2023).]
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La fiera
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MAR 01, 10:48 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Those are FANTASTIC!!! I've never seen flat-tappet lifters like that.
Couple of questions, what effect does it have on oil pressure? Do you see any degradation at all in oil pressure, or is it unnoticeable? Also... when / if you've disassembled an engine with lifters like these, have you seen any improper wearing, like perhaps a scoring line along where the opening is?
Is there a specific name for these, or do you happen to have a part number for these for the Gen-1 V6/60?
Thank you! I will definitely use the dry-lube.
EDIT: I did some quick searches, and the only thing I see is a mention of Isky and Crower as having them. I've reached out to both, but I don't see anything on their website specifically, but I might be using the wrong terms. Do you know if they actually sell these for the V6/60, or if the V6/60 uses lifters that are also in say, the SBC?
Thanks!
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No scoring of any kind. I have a set of used one and I will take a picture of them when I get home. As far as the oil pressure no difference. As for the lifters call Camcraft 828-681-5183 and ask for Hunter, tell him Rei sent you and you need a set of lifters made with the orifice. He makes all my cams and lifters.
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fierosound
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MAR 01, 11:50 AM
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